Crouchjump Clarification

[Jackal 709]

Description: I am suggesting for extensive or brief clarification on the crouch-jumping rule. Either through an update of the MOTD or a formal post in addition to the rules. 

 

Reasoning:
There is nothing written in terms of rules clearly defining what is and isn't allowed in terms of crouch jumping other than posts from 3 years ago that are incredibly outdated and from a long gone administration that wasn't exactly good to begin with. Specifically, in the post that clarified the rule has a contradiction in it. "Intentional Crouch-Jump Spam = FailRP | Crouch-Jumping during war or a RP scenario is FailRP unless it is to get over an obstacle. Recording needed before warn. Up to staff discretion." E (Additionally, the same thread with the rule is in the denied section anyway) Even in that given rule the first sentence clarifies that "crouch-jump SPAM" is failrp but then soon after the bracket contradicts the "spam" portion and says it's failrp in all scenarios with the exclusion of getting over obstacles and then further complicating things by saying it is up to staff discretion. Additionally, even on a handful of threads from this time period are confused and have different interpretations of the rule.

(This is generally why rules like this are written down and posted via a formal post under administration or the forums motd for the server is updated. Some rules like basecamp previously had to be written down concretely exactly BECAUSE of different interpretations due to it never formally being written down prior let alone with a good enough baseline.)

 

Additionally, in the sit I had earlier today I had an Admin, Papamid, who said the crouch jump rule was that once taking damage you can't crouch jump AT ALL whereas the one handling, Towelie an SMod, said it was only allowed when getting over obstacles. That should be telling enough coupled with the fact that all of the crouch-jump rule(s)/clarification are convoluted and incredibly dated (3+years old) and should be addressed.

New Rule: You are disallowed from crouch jumping in combat outside of the realm of movement/maneuverability. Examples below. (Recording required)

• Crouch-jumping and strafing to get around a corner
• Crouch-jumping and strafing to go down a level/floor
• Crouch-jumping and strafing to get to an adjacent room/area
• Crouch-jumping over obstacles
• Crouch-jumping to climb onto obstacles

Easy to enforce rule: More than one crouch-jump in combat results in a warning for FailRP regardless of scenario.

 

Additional Information: 

 

https://gyazo.com/b9a9ab89b7308ed4f115178cc8fe8a84

^The only notable posts about crouch jumping aside from a plethora of appeals/reports.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Jackal
Added rule(s) from replies to the thread

[Salmon 488]

The way I used to enforce it was crouch jumping during combat, for the most part. If you are engaging someone in combat or trying to flee combat and there isn't something to jump over in your way necessary for your escape, then crouch jump should be FRP.

 

If this is what you're saying then +1

Edited May 6, 2023 by Salmon

[PraetorDon 485]

Crouch jumping as I understand it is allowed to get over obstacles. Any other instance of it being used in Combat/RP Scenarios is FailRP. This is stated in the clarification.

Crouch-Jumping during war or a RP scenario is FailRP unless it is to get over an obstacle. Recording needed before warn. Up to staff discretion.

 I agree that the below is redundant, vague, and unnecessary. If I read it as written, it seems that doing it repeatedly would be FailRP, but it already is unless used to get over an obstacle, which likely wouldn't be spam anyway.

Intentional Crouch-Jump Spam = FailRP 

Remove the first part, keep the second. I am not staff, this is my opinion.

[Jackal 709]

1 hour ago, Salmon said:

The way I used to enforce it was crouch jumping during combat, for the most part. If you are engaging someone in combat or trying to flee combat and there isn't something to jump over in your way necessary for your escape, then crouch jump should be FRP.

 

If this is what you're saying then +1

To an extent that is what I am saying but way less restrictive on movement. Previously, this rule had been consistently enforced as any additional crouch jump after the first results in a warn. As it is now with obstacles and what you are saying that means, for example, me crouch jumping strafing into and out of cons having been in combat isn't allowed despite it being an almost essential part of cons. (Similarly, on my warn appeal I had crouch jumped to try and strafe around a corner, as fast as possible without dying, didn't shoot back at the dude during that period or even kill him https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/181z9GUwl6WIhN/P7ej4mhtfwaS?invite=cr-MSxoNmosMTI4MDExNzk0LA) Maneuverability is an incredibly important part of source games from my experience and crouch jumping coincidentally makes it more consistent and easier. Removing the ability to do that through an arbitrary rule, especially since it really only restricts a handful of players from what I've seen the past few days of playing, is dumb and evidently enough from the forums results in a hefty amount of reports/appeals that shouldn't exist to begin with.

 

1 hour ago, PraetorDon said:

Crouch jumping as I understand it is allowed to get over obstacles. Any other instance of it being used in Combat/RP Scenarios is FailRP. This is stated in the clarification.

Crouch-Jumping during war or a RP scenario is FailRP unless it is to get over an obstacle. Recording needed before warn. Up to staff discretion.

 I agree that the below is redundant, vague, and unnecessary. If I read it as written, it seems that doing it repeatedly would be FailRP, but it already is unless used to get over an obstacle, which likely wouldn't be spam anyway.

Intentional Crouch-Jump Spam = FailRP 

Remove the first part, keep the second. I am not staff, this is my opinion.

The problem with "keeping it as is" is that it doesn't take into account cssource/gmod and mechanics revolving around maneuverability (movement) like what I had mentioned previously as well as in my warn appeal. (I'll edit and link it in my original post so people can reference that and vice versa) Additionally, like I mentioned in this and the appeal the staff in my sit both had two interpretations of this rule as did I. None of which are necessarily wrong interpretations of the rule given it hasn't been ever posted in the MOTD or elsewhere for 3 years.

Though, you could always revert the rule to the tried and true "More than 1 crouch jump in combat = FailRP" since at that point you know for fact what it was done for (to break a hitbox) whereas doing it ONCE in combat could mean accidental, done to get over an obstacle, done to have better movement going around a corner, etc etc.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Jackal
reference + context

[Salmon 488]

14 minutes ago, Jackal said:

essential

(I'm on mobile and it's not letting me quote properly)

Way I would have decided it, you probably would have been fine or as long as you weren't shooting while crouch jumping. I haven't played this map but if it's anything like any of the previous renditions of Cons then your maneuvering should be fine too. But this isn't about my opinion as former staff.

 

What you said about the old rule might be viable but again only if necessary like maneuvering or getting over an obstacle. You shouldn't use it for momentary leverage in a fight by breaking your hitbox or to prolong your escape unless jumping over an obstacle.

[Jackal 709]

5 hours ago, Salmon said:

Way I would have decided it, you probably would have been fine or as long as you weren't shooting while crouch jumping. I haven't played this map but if it's anything like any of the previous renditions of Cons then your maneuvering should be fine too. But this isn't about my opinion as former staff.

Yeah I am largely in agreement with this just that if we allow strafing/crouchjump strafing in cons it should be tolerable elsewhere especially with how detrimental to movement it is in and outside of cons though cons does see it considerably more. (Either by strafing down levels vertically like on previous iterations or both vertically and horizontally like on the current map) As it is now it's just odd to enforce an unwritten rule with as many contradictions as it has both in writing and in practice ingame.

 

5 hours ago, Salmon said:

What you said about the old rule might be viable but again only if necessary like maneuvering or getting over an obstacle. You shouldn't use it for momentary leverage in a fight by breaking your hitbox or to prolong your escape unless jumping over an obstacle.

Yeah in my opinion, and this is pretty general, as long as the crouch jump isn't malicious and is actually being used for movement as opposed to breaking your hitbox you should be g2g (while also not crouch jumping more than once.) I.E. you see somebody crouch jumping in the middle of the open as they are getting shot then obviously that isn't allowed so you record and report. Whereas if you are crouch jumping to say get over something, get around a corner fast, go down a level/across buildings in cons or elsewhere, etc etc should be simply accepted as mechanics existing in the game and are ultimately learned and practiced to the point where anyone can do it. This is exactly the case with double and triple jumping through the bug that exists with the antibhop addon we have on the server. Technically, anyone who double or triple jumps should be getting banned for exploiting/warned for failrp given that it is a bug and arguably gives an unfair advantage to those aware. Though we know this is not the case and rather has been encouraged and accepted as an additional mechanic much akin to that of standard movement mechanics existing in source games. (Just like everything mentioned on this thread, with the exception of the obvious crouch jumping in the open, as well as warn appeal)

 

TL;DR I think the rule implementation is a given since well it isn't written anywhere on forums with the exception of a 3year old post(s). However, as for rule implementation/clarification I would think it would need to check a few boxes so as to avoid eliminating components of combat that make it fun. I.E. allowing for crouch-jump strafing, getting over obstacles, maneuvering, and disallowing the MALICIOUS use of it in combat as opposed to punishing people for simply playing the game normally or whatever. (Especially if we allow and accept bug(s) as movement mechanics but disallow this)

 

 

 

 

IMPORTANT - I just noticed the only mention of this officially on the forums is also in the administration "denied section." This is most certainly not supposed to be enforced if it is in the denied section without a follow up post reestablishing the rule. (Which there isn't atm)

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Jackal

[Jackal 709]

On 5/6/2023 at 1:45 AM, Jackal said:

Description: I am suggesting for extensive or brief clarification on the crouch-jumping rule. Either through an update of the MOTD or a formal post in addition to the rules. 

 

Reasoning:
There is nothing written in terms of rules clearly defining what is and isn't allowed in terms of crouch jumping other than posts from 3 years ago that are incredibly outdated and from a long gone administration that wasn't exactly good to begin with. Specifically, in the post that clarified the rule has a contradiction in it. "Intentional Crouch-Jump Spam = FailRP | Crouch-Jumping during war or a RP scenario is FailRP unless it is to get over an obstacle. Recording needed before warn. Up to staff discretion." E (Additionally, the same thread with the rule is in the denied section anyway) Even in that given rule the first sentence clarifies that "crouch-jump SPAM" is failrp but then soon after the bracket contradicts the "spam" portion and says it's failrp in all scenarios with the exclusion of getting over obstacles and then further complicating things by saying it is up to staff discretion. Additionally, even on a handful of threads from this time period are confused and have different interpretations of the rule.

(This is generally why rules like this are written down and posted via a formal post under administration or the forums motd for the server is updated. Some rules like basecamp previously had to be written down concretely exactly BECAUSE of different interpretations due to it never formally being written down prior let alone with a good enough baseline.)

 

Additionally, in the sit I had earlier today I had an Admin, Papamid, who said the crouch jump rule was that once taking damage you can't crouch jump AT ALL whereas the one handling, Towelie an SMod, said it was only allowed when getting over obstacles. That should be telling enough coupled with the fact that all of the crouch-jump rule(s)/clarification are convoluted and incredibly dated (3+years old) and should be addressed.

New Rule: You are disallowed from crouch jumping in combat outside of the realm of movement/maneuverability. Examples below. (Recording required)

• Crouch-jumping and strafing to get around a corner
• Crouch-jumping and strafing to go down a level/floor
• Crouch-jumping and strafing to get to an adjacent room/area
• Crouch-jumping over obstacles
• Crouch-jumping to climb onto obstacles

Easy to enforce rule: More than one crouch-jump in combat results in a warning for FailRP regardless of scenario.

 

Additional Information: 

 

https://gyazo.com/b9a9ab89b7308ed4f115178cc8fe8a84

^The only notable posts about crouch jumping aside from a plethora of appeals/reports.

 

From what Garnet has said on my warn appeal. There is a strong possibility of not even needing a rule so this, for the time being, could operate as a backup option if that falls flat. If you want to know what I am referencing it is my warn appeal for crouch-jumping which was also used as a reference in this thread. Feel free to react to his post as well to articulate your interest, or disinterest, in that addition to the server.

for the lazy people

https://forums.garnetgaming.net/index.php?/topic/23193-crouch-jump-warn-appeal/#comment-186994

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Jackal

[THEHUNTINGUY 37]

Accepted
 Moving forward the new rule will look like this. Crouch Jumping is considered FailRP while shooting or being shot at, you may crouch jump in all other scenarios. These scenarios can include: jumping over obstacles or repositioning while not being shot at.