[MRP] Crouch-Jumping Rule Clarification/Enforcement

[Soappppp 220]

Clarification on Crouch-Jumping

 DISCLAIMER : The proof provided isn't used to provide punishment against said player(s); it's used to show what is seen IMO as "breaking" the rule.

 

I. The Evidence

 First piece of evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdWZvYGSwYE

A. Going over the evidence first will help provide a canvas on what exactly crouch-jumping IS. Crouch-jumping is the combination of pressing CTRL ( most common crouch button ) + Space ( most common jump button ). This, as seen in the video, jolts your player model up and down in a swift motion. This in-turn makes sniping more difficult for the aggressor. However, the aggressor can ALSO crouch jump and in turn, make the defender have a tougher situation. Now, i'm all for skill-gap on the server, things making certain players better; but crouch-jumping can quite literally be bounded in console to space bar. This has absolutely nothing to do with skil, and doesn't effect the skill-gap at all. It simply puts players on even playing ground for the ones that don't crouch-jump. In the clip, we see the aggressor, Kruger, keeping a hold on US base. Using what appears to be a Mosin/Orsis, he continues to crouch-jump around and gather kills. The ability for a player to be able to crouch-jump while spamming A + D makes it extremely difficult to land shots on a target. Where-as the player crouch-jumping can take an easy shot while the defender tries to land the killing blow. Although he's only hitting CTRL ONCE per jump, it's still the player knowingly and willingly adjust his hitbox to dodge shots. 

 

Second piece of evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbT_QoQczAc&feature=youtu.be

B. The second piece of evidence shows the second situation which is allowable to an EXTENT. Kruger appears to be crouch-jumping while just running along, not in any combat situation. Crouch-jumping out of habit while just running around doesn't really serve any sort of harm to combat. However, it's when he noticed he WAS being shot at, he decided to continue crouch-jumping in order to elude my shots. Being aware that you're in a combat situation and continuing to manipulate your hitbox SHOULD BE against the rules. This clip should be what we as staff members should look out for. ( IE: If someone's reported for it and provides a video, we warn the player. )

 

I. ( CON'T ) Conclusion to "The Evidence"

C. These clips provided are in no means to target Kruger, he was simply one of the players that consistently do this practice. Clipping it and using it as evidence wasn't entirely difficult. The thing to take away from these two clips is how, as a staff member imo, this is what should be punishable. Crouch-jumping out of base without being shot at or being in a combat situation shouldn't be warnable; as a lot of players just crouch jump on their way to point. However, the evidence shows what INTENTIONAL crouch-jump spam looks like. Being AWARE of a combat situation and continuing to consistently crouch-jump SHOULD be punishable. 

 

II. The Enforcement

A. Enforcing the rule is ultimately up to the executives of MRP. However, I have a few suggestions on how we can enforce this rule. Relating this to 2017-2018 when Headglitching was considered FRP, staff had a multitude of ways to deal with said rule. This is similar to how it would be dealt with, however in this scenario, it's easy to distinguish if someone is doing it intentionally, as proven with the evidence. Staff members for the most part would have to warn with sufficient video evidence, as most warns go that have no log-based evidence. This isn't a complex thing to enforce, first time offense is just a verbal, as most players won't be 100% aware of this rule. Second time warn would be a simple FRP warn, or something along those lines. The enforcement section is primarily up to Executives. 

 

III. Conclusion

There isn't much to say or suggest when it comes to this rule. I'm overall asking for clarification on how this rule CAN be enforced. The evidence I provided was simply used to show what I BELIEVE should be punishable with a warn. Players intentionally manipulating their hitbox in order to gain an advantage in a fight. The Kruger clips also show where some sort of leeway can be given. The initial shot I take on the second piece of evidence where he crouch-jumps around the same second is fine. Thats an example of a unintentional crouch-jump in combat. However, it's what happens AFTER that should be somewhat punishable. He became aware of an aggressor and continued to crouch-jump spam.

 

 

TLDR : Make intentional crouch-jumping punishable by a warn. 

 

 

[Captainswag 894]

I don’t exactly want to plus one it, but I will. This is due to ever since we were on CSCDesert, and this was not allowed, I stopped doing it, and never did again due to stamina and such (which I also liked the first rendition of) so since then my own skill has decreased because while I’m shooting at crouch-jump-spam mccrazylegs, I’m holding W A S or D, and I’ll rarely get a kill on these people. I know my response is specific but yeah +1

[Riskii 190]

9 hours ago, Soappppp said:

INTENTIONAL crouch-jump spam looks like. Being AWARE of a combat situation and continuing to consistently crouch-jump SHOULD be punishable.

+1 

I'm okay with crouch jumping , but spamming it? Fuck no , should be a rule a since you're sorta breaking hitboxes.

Just like how breaking your orsis firerate , crouch jumping should be considered an exploit! ( it's not meant to be  " part of the game " + breaking hitbox ) & maybe fail-rp cause not in real life nor other video games you'll see a player crouch + jumping every second when they encounter an enemy.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Riskii
Bad English

[Prince 138]

+1. A LOT of people I have talked to have been very confused about the rule around crouch jumping. During the staff meeting in January I was the one that asked Aidan on some form of clarification and what we came to the conclusion on is “If someone jumps and crouches like once or twice it’s no big deal but if it’s a intentional attempt to break ones hit box, it’s an automatic FRP warn as long as there is video evidence and it is clear on what someone’s intentions are of crouch jumping. In game I have pm’d a lot of people with the message of “Hey, watch the crouch jump spam :)” and I have gotten a lot of “what do you mean crouch jump?!?!, I’m only jumping ONCE and I am allowed to crouch a SINGLE TIME in my jumps and that’s allowed.” The problem arrises when you get a 20 second clip with someone crouch jumping an absolute absurd amount of times, or religiously making sure that they are only doing it ONCE per jump so they aren’t breaking the rules (even though they are). When the rule was created it was stated as, Crouch-Jump Spam = Fail RP, so some clarification on how the rule is stated is highly needed. 
 

(Sorry for formatting or typos I’m on my phone)

Edited March 5, 2020 by Prince

[PraetorDon 485]

-1 to this, but please read. 

If we're going to go this in depth to crouch jumping, and how it's allowed and not allowed, it should should be just disallowed altogether.

This is one of those potential rules that will difficult to enforce, and will be frustrating for both  players and staff.

 

Again, if we're going down this route, just disallow crouch jumping altogether, preferably with a grace period.

 

Edit: For those quoting my thread, my whole shtick is I play devil's advocate to get better+more opinions.


As a side note,

Is crouch jumping during war a problem? Sure. Should there be this much  put into it?  No. A decision should be made by the executives+the staff team, we don't need a whole thread on it. No offence to Stork, it's very well written.

There are greater issues that need addressing such as the poor new player experience, toxicity of players+factions overall, and the toxicity between US and RU. I get that this is the suggestions forum, but the crouch jumping issue is something that should be entirely decided by staff, not a community suggestion.

That's just my (controversial) opinion.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Praetor_Don
might remove later idk

[Captainswag 894]

Actually I’d like to change my answer as a compromise of both what @PraetorDon had just brought up, and the original post. 
I think that stamina should return. It could limit crouch jumping with an edit such as follows.

1) it would not affect sprint so you can still sprint infinitely

2) it would take 10-12 seconds for the bar to recharge

3) two jumps (which would include crouch jumps) would deplete the whole thing (or one, but some people use jumps to get over things so I think 2) this would mean each time you press space (or ‘jump’) 50% of the bat would be depleted

[Kruger 62]

oh damn, i gotta chill.

I wouldn't mind this becoming a rule as long as the punishment for it is not a ban for exploiting.  Like Don said it's going to be very difficult to enforce and the sits would take longer because it requires evidence.  Meanwhile I'll try my best to not jump crouch as much. 

In the second clip I'm not sure if it's me because it doesn't show a name in the feed or anything. Also another thing I'm worried about is if this becomes a rule will older clips get me punished? 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Kruger

[Riskii 190]

49 minutes ago, Captainswag said:

Actually I’d like to change my answer as a compromise of both what @PraetorDon had just brought up, and the original post. 
I think that stamina should return. It could limit crouch jumping with an edit such as follows.

1) it would not affect sprint so you can still sprint infinitely

2) it would take 10-12 seconds for the bar to recharge

3) two jumps (which would include crouch jumps) would deplete the whole thing (or one, but some people use jumps to get over things so I think 2) this would mean each time you press space (or ‘jump’) 50% of the bat would be depleted

Remember OC And maybe some SOC tryout requires alot of jump , limiting the ammount of ability you can jump will do nothing but annoy yourself due to the fact that you have to wait for the next 5-15 second to recharge your bar. 

By adding a jump bar will also makes it harder to double/triple jump (maybe), harder to jump on top of people head to get a boost. And alot more

Besides , people jumping isn't a problem , but people jumping while spamming crouch is.

My recommendation however is 

Player aren't allow to stand (Releasing their crouch key) in mid air. That means they're going to do a full crouch jump until they land , and then they're allowed to stand back up.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Riskii
Bad English

[Dan Gardner 346]

This is the reason I stopped playing MilitaryRP. So I won't give my official +/- as it would be biased. I will say that enforcing this rule will have to be based on video evidence ONLY. There is no way to prove the rule had been broken without this, so there would be no way to enforce it effectively without said evidence. I would also like this to be enforced as Exploiting, so I would say evidence would need to include the player using this glitch to their advantage at least two times in five seconds, to avoid accidental key-presses from being seen as a perm-bannable offense.

21 minutes ago, Kruger said:

Also another thing I'm worried about is if this becomes a rule will older clips get me punished? 

Basic protocol is you can't be convicted for breaking a rule before it exists, that'd just be silly.

[Prince 138]

46 minutes ago, PraetorDon said:

-1 to this, but please read. 

If we're going to go this in depth to crouch jumping, and how it's allowed and not allowed, it should should be just disallowed altogether.

This is one of those potential rules that will difficult to enforce, and will be frustrating for both  players and staff.

Some players still need to crouch jump to get around OBJs or climb certain places around the map. The problem is solely seen in combat scenarios where people will intentionally break their hit box multiple times to give themselves and automatic advantage no matter what. 

 

32 minutes ago, Kruger said:

oh damn, i gotta chill.

I wouldn't mind this becoming a rule as long as the punishment for it is not a ban for exploiting.  Like Don said it's going to be very difficult to enforce and the sits would take longer because it requires evidence.  Meanwhile I'll try my best to not jump crouch as much. 

In the second clip I'm not sure if it's me because it doesn't show a name in the feed or anything. Also another thing I'm worried about is if this becomes a rule will older clips get me punished? 

1. It is already a rule and has been a rule for close to 2 months now, it comes down to confusion between the staff team on exactly to what extent we enforce it. Originally as seen in January and prior, people would run around with binds to make them unhittable and although it has improved, people are still doing it at a lower version but in the end, are still intentionally breaking their hit box. 

And no don’t worry, if we punished you for clips of what you did in the past that would be absurd, we were simply using you as support to back up this post. 
 

The problem with this being enforced as exploiting is exploiting follows this road map, Verbal Warn —> Warn —> Perma Ban, so something as simple as this being considered exploiting where there is a possibility of it being an accident could cause major problems down the line seeing as a vast majority of the player base ( Both US & RU ) still do this, and we wouldn’t want permas flying out left and right for this. ( I know you addressed accidents in your post but the rule was initially made to be FRP)  @Dan Gardner

Edited March 5, 2020 by Prince

[Captainswag 894]

Listen you guys can battle out if it should be enforced one way or another how it would do so in the first place. But stamina worked, it didn’t need to be a rule for someone to watch out for, it just worked, I don’t care which edition of stamina you’d use but if it limits jumping, it’s a way that people can’t just spam it to break their hit box. That’s all I’ve got to say 

[Dan Gardner 346]

Just now, Captainswag said:

But stamina worked

Correction, it cut the server's playerbase in half for a month.

 

11 minutes ago, Prince said:

The problem with this being enforced as exploiting is exploiting follows this road map, Verbal Warn —> Warn —> Perma Ban, so something as simple as this being considered exploiting where there is a possibility of it being an accident could cause major problems down the line seeing as a vast majority of the player base ( Both US & RU ) still do this, and we wouldn’t want permas flying out left and right for this. ( I know you addressed accidents in your post but the rule was initially made to be FRP)  @Dan Gardner

With a protocol like that, it would take someone two warnings before they get banned. For anyone with a brain, this is plenty.

Think about fast-fire, just because some people do it out of combat doesn't mean its okay for them to do it in combat, even accidentally. This is even more of a game breaking glitch as it literally makes the hitbox have a seizure, causing the person shooting at them to ultimately miss 75% of their shot attempts. This is INSANELY unfair. I don't see why people don't put this under the same light as fast-fire.

[skrt 674]

14 minutes ago, Captainswag said:

Listen you guys can battle out if it should be enforced one way or another how it would do so in the first place. But stamina worked, it didn’t need to be a rule for someone to watch out for, it just worked, I don’t care which edition of stamina you’d use but if it limits jumping, it’s a way that people can’t just spam it to break their hit box. That’s all I’ve got to say 

Stamina also killed the server hard even when it was tweaked. You were lucky if you had 40 players on during peak hours and you were still able to break your playermodel. Overall +1 for intentionally crouch jumping in combat having a punishment.

Edited March 5, 2020 by skrt

[Dan Gardner 346]

1 hour ago, PraetorDon said:

-1 to this, but please read. 

If we're going to go this in depth to crouch jumping, and how it's allowed and not allowed, it should should be just disallowed altogether.

This is one of those potential rules that will difficult to enforce, and will be frustrating for both  players and staff.

 

Again, if we're going down this route, just disallow crouch jumping altogether, preferably with a grace period.

Crouch jumping is an integral part of all Source games, and is a main component of movement across all platforms. What is being suggested here is to enforce a rule against using the crouch-while-jumping glitch to your advantage while in combat. MEANING: You can crouch jump in combat if you are using the movement to elevate yourself to a higher plane, (ie: jumping on a box or some shit). What someone could NOT do if this were enforced would be an example from either one of the clips provided. One can break their hitbox up to 4 TIMES in one jump without losing momentum. With a script, you can bind a key to break your hitbox, and it has been done on this server, and may even still be done (I haven't been on in 2 weeks)

[Kendal 450]

2 hours ago, PraetorDon said:

-1 to this, but please read. 

If we're going to go this in depth to crouch jumping, and how it's allowed and not allowed, it should should be just disallowed altogether.

This is one of those potential rules that will difficult to enforce, and will be frustrating for both  players and staff.

This rule is already in effect. Stork isn't necessarily proposing a change to the current crouch jump rule, he's proposing that we enforce the rule period.  We set the rule up so that crouch jump SPAMMING would be against the rules, and it was up to staff discretion/the evidence itself to classify what is spamming and what is just someone trying to get to higher ground or something. So again, this is more of a thread Clarifying what counts as jump crouch spamming so the community knows.

There won't be a grace period this time around because nothing is actually changing. This is what the crouch-jump rule was supposed to look like, but we couldn't exactly make a wall of text for one rule.

 

3 hours ago, PraetorDon said:

There are greater issues that need addressing such as the poor new player experience, toxicity of players+factions overall, and the toxicity between US and RU. I get that this is the suggestions forum, but this is something that should be entirely decided by staff, not a community suggestion.

The problems you lined out in this portion right here are all things that we should and will be working on as a team. The new player experience mostly comes down to how base factions choose to handle things and their players, but with a little bit of a nudge in the right direction from the right players/staff the base faction experience could be improved over time. As for the toxicity things, one thing we have to remember when dealing with toxicity is that on some level, it will always exist on the server. It's a competitive environment, and that kind of breeds a certain level of toxicity. I'm not advocating we do nothing about it when I say that, however we have to be careful what we do about it. 

One thing that might help repair RU and US relations is OOC events, the kind Gildarts used to do. Those events would bring the two sides together for a short time to do something fun, and overall made completely avoiding the other side pretty hard. I think one thing that might really help is to have an executive on RU handling the RU issues, and an executive on US handling those. Another solution is that we as a staff team could do is that we encourage a bit of a rivalry while also allowing people more freedom to do things with the enemy. For example, swapping over to help with war. In that kind of case, when RU swaps over to help US out for a war with numbers it should be something that is appreciated by US and RU respectively. I think if players had more of a respect for each other than an outright hatred for them, their playstyle, etc, then a lot of good could come. And these are just minor changes that may or may not help. Everything with this toxicity problem is a shot in the dark, and any "solution" could end up being overdone and more harm than good. So I encourage staff members to come to me with their own ideas on how we can bridge the divide between US and RU players.