Clarify the CP rules

[JimtheScubaDiver 53]

Alright, so it'd always been the way of the Civil Protection life that if you see someone raiding, you blast 'em; if you see someone mugging, you blast 'em, Et cetera. Sometime between the time I was staff and when I started playing again recently, this changed. According to staff, the "You may not perform illegal activities" clause in the CP rules means you can't kill outright while countering illegal activities. Instead, you must arrest them.

However, when you counter a raid on civilian(another class with a 'no illegal activities' clause), you get to use your bang sticks as much as you want! It would be awesome if we could get a rule added in the CP rule section that states you have to make an attempt to arrest an evildoer, and only if they shoot you may you use lethal force.

Personally, I think it would make playing Civil Protection more fun if you could just blast people who are in the midst of a crime. I think it would fit the absurdity of the DarkRP genre much better than the current rule does.

 

Let me lay out a situation: There's a thief raiding Johnny's gun shop. You, as a member of the Civil Protection, see that the thief is two fading doors into Johnny's defense and, because of the arrest-not-kill rule, are powerless to do anything while the thief ransacks Johnny's shop. Now Johnny is indebted to the mafia, as he can't pay off his loan. Now Johnny is going to get kneecapped and will have to do his business out of a wheelchair.

How does that make you feel? 

 

Alright, I digress. The rule is a somewhat reasonable attempt to enforce arrests, but in my opinion it's impractical and not communicated well AT ALL. Seriously, cops on DarkRP can't kill raiders or muggers without them shooting first because of this rule.

 

The resolution:

Either make it clear that CP's are not allowed to shoot first in any situation, or let DarkRP be DarkRP.

[eXg IPL4YG4MES 204]

16 minutes ago, JimtheScubaDiver said:

Either make it clear that CP's are not allowed to shoot first in any situation, or let DarkRP be DarkRP.

 

• You may counter without adverting.

That is a rule straight from the CP job rules, implying that the police may shoot on sight if they see someone raiding, mugging (etc.) 

Though I do agree it should be clarified on the arrest not kill situations, such as hits and shooting other cops for trying to arrest.

[JimtheScubaDiver 53]

33 minutes ago, Starlepsy said:

 

• You may counter without adverting.

That is a rule straight from the CP job rules, implying that the police may shoot on sight if they see someone raiding, mugging (etc.) 

I asked specifically about this when I was told you can't shoot first.

I was told, "the 'no illegal activities' rule includes killing." To me, it makes no sense as killing is not inherently illegal(see KOS signs and regular civilian counters). That's why I made this post.

[vapr 231]

In my opinion cops shouldn't shoot unless the person is armed and putting other civilians at risk, and arrest if they aren't armed. 

[Pluto_ 686]

Ok so the reason that this is not allowed is because it a loophole similar to the "he was behind my kos line" loophole. All a cop has to say to MRDM is "he was raiding". Most players don't record, so just leaving this hole open is not a good idea. 

[JimtheScubaDiver 53]

49 minutes ago, PIuto said:

Ok so the reason that this is not allowed is because it a loophole similar to the "he was behind my kos line" loophole. All a cop has to say to MRDM is "he was raiding". Most players don't record, so just leaving this hole open is not a good idea. 

I disagree. If there's a raid advert without an over or a death prior to the cop killing the reporter, then it's case closed not RDM. If there was no raid advert, or was a death or an over advert, then the cop would need to submit proof that they didn't RDM IIRC. Pretty sure the "well the victim doesn't have proof that he wasn't inside the KOS line" argument isn't supposed to work. The burden of proof falls upon the killer in a situation.

It would be the cop's fault if he wasn't recording/didn't take a screenshot of the person cracking/lockpicking.

 

Also, the rules don't reflect what is enforced. There is NO rule saying that cops can't shoot evildoers. All we've got is staff making an arbitrary judgement that killing is inherently illegal(which, on the server, it is not). 

Civvies can counter and kill raiders. Cops can counter raiders, but have to arrest instead, according to staff; no rule states that!

-

 

3 hours ago, vapr said:

In my opinion cops shouldn't shoot unless the person is armed and putting other civilians at risk, and arrest if they aren't armed. 

I agree, depending on your definition of risk. What if the raider is in a door deep and it's literally impossible for the cop to arrest them?

I think cops should be able to shoot first/ask questions later for raids, and primarily arrest for mugging/stealing(attempt to arrest unless you or another cop is shot first).

Edited February 22, 2021 by JimtheScubaDiver

[vapr 231]

45 minutes ago, PIuto said:

Ok so the reason that this is not allowed is because it a loophole similar to the "he was behind my kos line" loophole. All a cop has to say to MRDM is "he was raiding". Most players don't record, so just leaving this hole open is not a good idea. 

well there is logs to show if they were raiding, advert and lockpick logs would prevent this

[Pluto_ 686]

23 minutes ago, JimtheScubaDiver said:

The burden of proof falls upon the killer in a situation.

It would be the cop's fault if he wasn't recording/didn't take a screenshot of the person cracking/lockpicking.

This is STRICTLY false. Reporter always need proof excluding FW claim. 

26 minutes ago, vapr said:

well there is logs to show if they were raiding, advert and lockpick logs would prevent this

In the loophole scenario, there would be no advert. Also logs do not show keypad cracking.

[Kuri 30]

31 minutes ago, PIuto said:

 

In the loophole scenario, there would be no advert. Also logs do not show keypad cracking.

i arrested shin for raiding with keypad got a jail for rda in spawn

 

[JimtheScubaDiver 53]

33 minutes ago, PIuto said:

This is STRICTLY false. Reporter always need proof excluding FW claim. 

My bad, I don't know why I thought it was the other way around.

What are cops supposed to do, then, if they see someone raiding without an advert? It's a much more common thing than cops RDMing and saying that the victim was raiding a base. In fact, I've never personally dealt with or heard of such a situation. If the cop arrests the player instead of killing them, the situation/resolution is the same. No proof either way, but it's an arrest rather than a kill.

Sure, the cop should report the player raiding without advert. But do you see cops checking the chat to see if someone adverted raid before taking action?

 

Either way, the fact that there is no rule stating that cops can't outright kill those committing illegal activities still stands. Civilians can counter and kill, and cops can too(with the rules written how they are currently).

Again, I think cops arresting more players rather than killing would be perfectly acceptable. I'm not out to play CP just because I want to kill people, I would play thief and raid random bases or packed gun shops to do that. I'm just saying, the staff enforces a nonexistent rule.

Edited February 22, 2021 by JimtheScubaDiver

[vapr 231]

32 minutes ago, PIuto said:

This is STRICTLY false. Reporter always need proof excluding FW claim. 

In the loophole scenario, there would be no advert. Also logs do not show keypad cracking.

The loophole is already there, with arresting it's the same as rdm. This wouldn't change much except be more realistic.

[Shin_Tsukimi 2,246]

Denied (Partially)

While cops will not be allowed to shoot people on sight because they are commiting a crime anytime soon (with the exception of passing a KOS sign in the PD), I will make sure to let Proggy know to make it clear in the next rule update cops can't shoot on sight with the exception of the KOS sign in the PD.