The Return Of Reserves For Real?

[Hashem 50]

12 minutes ago, Kendal said:

I'd probably play MRP again if what the community wants and what I want was similar or something that could be compromised on.

I'm all for responsible and limited usage of the reserves system, the community favors an archaic and broken system prone to abuse and redundancy.

As a member of the community, and someone who used to play very actively I feel as if I am still allowed to have an opinion on things. I'm pretty sure you'd stop playing MRP yourself if the server changed in a direction you didn't like. So using that argument of "well you don't play anymore" only serves to set up a hypocritical error way down the line when you make your resignation post and say "The server isn't the same as x so I'm resigning." You'll weigh in and have an opinion on threads that you yourself once said you shouldn't because you don't play anymore. It happens to everyone for the most part.

Very rarely does someone quit playing the server and die a whimper of a death with no presence on the forums. Even perm banned players like to weigh in and give support to certain topics. So that entire argument is just self-defeating. Especially when you consider a good chunk of the player base RIGHT NOW are people who quit playing for an extended period of time, and came back to a changed server. 

Fine, fair point, you're right in the argument that people who don't play still can have a voice, but focusing on the topic at hand, you state that the system is archaic and is prone to abuse and redundancy. This system was completely fine and favored before. People spent weeks and months to get their reserves ranks, and just because the server has been around for a long time, many people had reserves and thats why its chaotic, its a sign of success, not a sign of bad server rules. It has the potential to bring back more players and keep players playing. If reserves comes back, I'd have more of a reason to come back instead of starting over from scratch. The previous reserves system really did no harm and like I said, brought back players. There have been moments where a person comes back on the server, has his reserves rank, is told reserves are removed and told to change his name, and hops off a couple minutes later to never be seen again. Those could have been active players today if reserves were not removed. And you said it yourself "the community favors," the majority of players want it back, whether its broken or not, and higher staff should listen to the larger consensus and opinions of the community instead of the highly vocal minority, but regardless, this has not been happening.

Here is the bottom line, sure you have an opinion and can have a voice, but your voice should not outweigh the voices of the many people who have +1ed this suggestion and the many more people who want reserves back. But sadly, it already has.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Hashim

[Kendal 450]

Just now, Hashim said:

Here is the bottom line, sure you have an opinion and can have a voice, but your voice should not outweigh the voices of the many people who have +1ed this suggestion and the many more people who want reserves back. But sadly, it already has.

Why is my -1 any less valuable than your +1? I mean they are both opinions. Is it because a huge chunk of the community will agree react your post whereas mine is cringe reacted? At the end of the day they are both opinions, whether or not you have significant backing by others who share the same opinion shouldn't outweigh mine. That's for the accepting/denying staff on this suggestion to decide.

Speaking of staff decisions, from what I know the higher staff of the MRP community agreed to this decision, with Garnet himself also being a contributor to the decision. 

Many of the points used for AND against the reserves "comeback" are speculative. My points are based on first-hand experience I had with the system when I was a player, and later a Manager on the server. I was part of nearly every faction, and had reserves in nearly every faction. The points I made in my initial response to this thread were things I saw others doing, and things I myself was doing. I was a US main and the COL of Green Beret, yet quite often just for shits and giggles I would switch over to my PDSS reserves or something just to dick around, usually helping the US lose yet another war at a time when US was ALWAYS losing wars to RU. You could probably imagine how frustrating it might have been if you were a US player that knew me as the GB leader, helping RU to win yet another war. And I wasn't the only one doing this.

That is only 1 point in my argument based on speculation. I'm sorry my points don't fit your narrative, but my opinion on the matter carries as much weight as yours does. 

[Hashem 50]

14 minutes ago, Kendal said:

Why is my -1 any less valuable than your +1? I mean they are both opinions. Is it because a huge chunk of the community will agree react your post whereas mine is cringe reacted? At the end of the day they are both opinions, whether or not you have significant backing by others who share the same opinion shouldn't outweigh mine. That's for the accepting/denying staff on this suggestion to decide.

 

I never said your -1 is less valuable than my +1. They are both completely equal. But what is not equal, is your -1 and the vocal minority's -1s, compared to the countless and vastly outnumbering +1s and the people who want reserves back on the server.

 

14 minutes ago, Kendal said:

I was a US main and the COL of Green Beret, yet quite often just for shits and giggles I would switch over to my PDSS reserves or something just to dick around, usually helping the US lose yet another war at a time when US was ALWAYS losing wars to RU. You could probably imagine how frustrating it might have been if you were a US player that knew me as the GB leader, helping RU to win yet another war. And I wasn't the only one doing this.

This can easily be fixed by a faction leader only allowing people to switch when the other side is outnumbered. Thats what I did when I was GRU COL. And this issue is kind of already fixed because you need staff permission to switch sides during war.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Hashim

[Tayler 395]

Well, some people did put thousands of hours towards the server and although it's not stated they deserve anything, a reserved rank wouldnt be the end of the world especially if it didnt hold any power at all. Reserves shouldnt be something people act entitled to but for those who have done good changes for a specific faction could have a reserved rank. Its very manageable to remove or monitor how reserves are given out and take away from those who have shown they dont use it fairly or abuse having the whitelists

[Dillan 750]

Listen, I lost all my reserves if it doesn't come back I'm okay with that, I'm busy enough with working and doing small events on SW. However when people clearly want something enough to suggest it several times and it keeps getting support to this level, you really are setting yourself up poorly. The argument against it is weak in itself. (People abused it), okay nerf it then. Removing features that people want from a game caused negative feelings of the playerbase of the game, that's just how it works. Starwars won't have this problem, we won't have reserves, so there isn't a chance of loosing liked features. I just got off a 10 hour shift, and I'm tired. Either lock this with the message you don't care what majority player wants because that's not what the minority want, or give the kids back their fake part time job as a glorified substitute teacher.  

[Lark 63]

23 hours ago, Kendal said:

Why is my -1 any less valuable than your +1? I mean they are both opinions. Is it because a huge chunk of the community will agree react your post whereas mine is cringe reacted? At the end of the day they are both opinions, whether or not you have significant backing by others who share the same opinion shouldn't outweigh mine. That's for the accepting/denying staff on this suggestion to decide.

Your -1 post was 5 points that are exactly the same but with different wording. And also I like how you say "whereas mine is cringe reacted" but you cringe react every nigga that you dont like. 

[Lex_ 506]

On 6/18/2020 at 5:38 PM, Hashim said:

This can easily be fixed by a faction leader only allowing people to switch when the other side is outnumbered. Thats what I did when I was GRU COL. And this issue is kind of already fixed because you need staff permission to switch sides during war.

The entire point of those opposing you is the fact that faction leaders had too much freedom and abused the privilege. [read below]

 

On 6/18/2020 at 3:43 PM, Hashim said:

Does it affect the server negatively? No, it instead contributes to player counts.

Does it affect the faction negatively? No, it instead contributes to faction player counts.

So again, why would it be bad? And if there is a situation where it would be affecting the server/faction negatively, faction leaders reserve the right to remove reserves whenever they want to.

And again why do you care and why does it matter? If you care and you're a faction leader, you can remove someone's reserves.

[I'm gonna get shit for what I say here, which proves my exact point]

Player count does not equal player retention. Stop basing success off the number of idle players - it's not a good metric. And coming from somebody who has taken people's reserves both rightfully and a few times just because, they bitched and whined to other people (staff and future leaders) to get their reserves back, which generally works for whatever reason, completely disregarding the opinion and work put in from previous leaders.

There is and has been (as long as I've been here) a lack of consensus between the community, between manager(s) and staff, on a wide variety of topics. In this case, it could be dumbed down to How much power should faction leaders have? Many faction leaders abuse the power they get, staff tend to distance themselves before eventually getting involved, often times too late. I don't care what anybody tells me, none of the factions, regiments, or whatever the fuck you want to call them, are in a good position right now (and from what it sounded like they've never been; fun doesn't equal fuctionally sound).

Strict managers are power-hungry and dictators. Managers who sit back until they're desperately needed are seen as cowards or inactive bastards. Until you can drop the childish attitudes toward authority and responsibility, none of this will be in a good state. It's just a video game my ass; ignoring the rather simple common-sense of "managing" a faction and the accompanying set of rules because it's just a game is a toxic view on responsibility and management of essentially anything.

 

Now that the mini-rant is over, here's a pretty simple response to the actual suggestion:

-1. While reserves promote older players to return, in the previous and current state (as well as the proposed states by community members), it's not a viable solution to keeping people on the server and actually improving the community. A higher player count is not gonna save anything. While it's nice to have more people on, people do eventually leave. From what I've seen (no exact numbers, basing it off of memory with a lack of quantitive data), it's very rare for a new player to return to the server after experiencing a single peacetime. The lack of activity (it's pretty lackluster to find a full server just to see that 70% of the people online are just idle and AFK) pushes them away. The imbalance in weapons and availablity of those weapons pushes them away (AR15 vs AEK/A5/Orsis/...).

 

Here's what people actually want reserves for:

- A title that means they don't have to play as an enlisted in an entry faction.

- A boost in rank so that they can return and immediately be given some sort of power (which is possible without said rank).

To go along with my first point in the list above, a surprising amount of people use said title (regardless of their reserves rank) to literally assert their dominance and superiority over other players, generally those in entry factions - even if the other players are officers. Of course, people continue to do this without reserves because taking this game/server seriously is a damn sin, but the point still stands.

 

--

Also a side-note: it's ironically funny that people who are arguing against and in disagreement of the return of reserves are also people who had a ton of reserve ranks. It's almost as if they understand how outright broken and bullshit it was (and still is). But as if they'd know anything, right? They don't play MRP anymore, so their opinions should obviously be considered irrelevant and void.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Torch

[Hashem 50]

2 hours ago, Torch said:

[I'm gonna get shit for what I say here, which proves my exact point]

Well probably only by people who are too much of pussies to confront you themselves sitting in their ts channel with a ring of friends, but who really cares abut being crap talked by those type of people tbh.

2 hours ago, Torch said:

While reserves promote older players to return, in the previous and current state (as well as the proposed states by community members), it's not a viable solution to keeping people on the server and actually improving the community. A higher player count is not gonna save anything. While it's nice to have more people on, people do eventually leave. From what I've seen (no exact numbers, basing it off of memory with a lack of quantitive data), it's very rare for a new player to return to the server after experiencing a single peacetime. The lack of activity (it's pretty lackluster to find a full server just to see that 70% of the people online are just idle and AFK) pushes them away. The imbalance in weapons and availablity of those weapons pushes them away (AR15 vs AEK/A5/Orsis/...).

A higher player count may not save anything, but it sure will help. Its better to see more players on everyday. We never said that reserves was the solution for solving player counts and keeping people on the server because it shouldn't be.  You said it yourself, they promote old players to hop on. They also give someone a reason to keep playing after resignation. I'm all for the rest of the stuff you said (gun balancing and activities to do during war).

2 hours ago, Torch said:

Here's what people actually want reserves for:

- A title that means they don't have to play as an enlisted in an entry faction.

- A boost in rank so that they can return and immediately be given some sort of power (which is possible without said rank).

To go along with my first point in the list above, a surprising amount of people use said title (regardless of their reserves rank) to literally assert their dominance and superiority over other players, generally those in entry factions - even if the other players are officers. Of course, people continue to do this without reserves because taking this game/server seriously is a damn sin, but the point still stands.

Point one: What is so bad about not wanting to play as an enlisted in an entry faction? When someone put in all the time to get up to officer or faction leader, I think that they deserve a title, and if they abuse that title by being assholes and thinking that they're superior to other players, staff and faction leaders can get involved.

Point two: Make reserves have no power at all. When I first hopped on the server and even up until last year I did not really like the  fact that reserves ranks could do things like call DB or raids. I'd be all for not giving them power.

You're never going to stop arrogance on this server for someone being on a SOC faction, its just human nature for someone to think he/she is better because they are in a higher position, even if they had a higher position. Second of all, faction leaders should always reserve the right to remove someones reserves for this or for anything. Staff can always get involved. (Its pretty stupid how people got their reserves back after you removed them imo).

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Hashim

[Lex_ 506]

Rather than us continuing to argue about a broken system, I propose a restrictive but fair compromise that fits the suggested use cases:

To begin: reserves need to be recorded seperately from a faction's documents; publically or privately at the discretion of management. These new documents should be owned a manager. You can use a form to record new entries to reserves, managers can verify with leaders and then properly record.

Additionally, all reserves need to meet these requirements (unless stated otherwise by management, or exceptions if you read further):

1. You must be a current member of the faction you're getting reserves for.
2. Reserves cannot be the first two recorded ranks of a faction.
3. Going onto reserves requires manager permission until the community can be trusted with governing this themselves.

If you have an emergency that requires you to be away for longer than a 3 weeks, you can be put onto reserves with manager approval without meeting the above requirements.

 

Some extra restrictions to keep power in check:

• The max reserves rank for non-faction leaders will be the highest enlisted rank (generally E-9).
• The max reserves rank for faction leaders will be O-1. [With the new requirement of recording previous leaders, this should be easy to maintain]
• Officer reserves cannot raid, kidnap players, or accept PTE. They can still claim with permission from the current faction leader and can host a briefing/debriefing if another player or officer hasn't already claimed it, and can accept PTLs (but can also be overruled by any active duty officer; O-1+, regardless of rank)
• Under no circumstances should there be Warrant Officer/Junior Officer reserves.
• You are NOT entitled to reserves regardless of your previous rank or status. You are granted reserves by the next (or in some cases, current) faction leader.
• Reserves can be removed for any reason that is not discriminative or majorly biased by either a faction leader or staff. When reserves are removed, they cannot (and should not) be given back for any reason unless the player affected can prove (without giving away personal information that may identify them) that they went on reserves for an emergency.
• If a player lies about needing to go on reserves for an emergency and it could be proved, a manager can take their reserves for that faction.
• You may only have enlisted reserves rank for one faction per side. If you lead a faction, the O-1 reserves can ignore this limit, but any enlisted reserves will still be required to follow it.

Before people may be potentially confused by the last point: you can still have reserves in one faction and join another [on one side]. But if you want reserves for that faction, you must give up the former.

 

What will coming off of reserves look like?

Players who return to come off of reserves will be required to play a minimum of one week (7 days, non-inclusive - so a total of 8 by date), which can be tracked by reserves document I spoke of before. When they are cleared to come off of reserves, they have an additional minimum cooldown extension of 4 days (which obviously includes their rank's normal cooldown). To come off of reserves in a faction, you must not be an active member of another faction. While some people think that dual-factioning is alright, I'm not for it and believe a system that allows it could be abused.

Finally: if reserves return, it is a clean slate. We start anew and do not use old reserves lists. The only people who should be on those reserves after it's return will be current faction members and "now-resigned" faction leaders, both of which will require approval from their [new] faction leader and a manager.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Torch

[AlexConway 1,166]

12 minutes ago, Torch said:

Rather than us continuing to argue about a broken system, I propose a restrictive but fair compromise that fits the suggested use cases:

To begin: reserves need to be recorded seperately from a faction's documents; publically or privately at the discretion of management. These new documents should be owned a manager. You can use a form to record new entries to reserves, managers can verify with leaders and then properly record.

Additionally, all reserves need to meet these requirements (unless stated otherwise by management, or exceptions if you read further):

1. You must be a current member of the faction you're getting reserves for.
2. Reserves cannot be the first two recorded ranks of a faction.
3. Going onto reserves requires manager permission until the community can be trusted with governing this themselves.

If you have an emergency that requires you to be away for longer than a 3 weeks, you can be put onto reserves with manager approval without meeting the above requirements.

 

Some extra restrictions to keep power in check:

• The max reserves rank for non-faction leaders will be the highest enlisted rank (generally E-9).
• The max reserves rank for faction leaders will be O-1. [With the new requirement of recording previous leaders, this should be easy to maintain]
• Officer reserves cannot raid, kidnap players, or accept PTE. They can still claim with permission from the current faction leader and can host a briefing/debriefing if another player or officer hasn't already claimed it, and can accept PTLs (but can also be overruled by any active duty officer; O-1+, regardless of rank)
• Under no circumstances should there be Warrant Officer/Junior Officer reserves.
• You are NOT entitled to reserves regardless of your previous rank or status. You are granted reserves by the next (or in some cases, current) faction leader.
• Reserves can be removed for any reason that is not discriminative or majorly biased by either a faction leader or staff. When reserves are removed, they cannot (and should not) be given back for any reason unless the player affected can prove (without giving away personal information that may identify them) that they went on reserves for an emergency.
• If a player lies about needing to go on reserves for an emergency and it could be proved, a manager can take their reserves for that faction.
• You may only have enlisted reserves rank for one faction per side. If you lead a faction, the O-1 reserves can ignore this limit, but any enlisted reserves will still be required to follow it.

Before people may be potentially confused by the last point: you can still have reserves in one faction and join another [on one side]. But if you want reserves for that faction, you must give up the former.

 

What will coming off of reserves look like?

Players who return to come off of reserves will be required to play a minimum of one week (7 days, non-inclusive - so a total of 8 by date), which can be tracked by reserves document I spoke of before. When they are cleared to come off of reserves, they have an additional minimum cooldown extension of 4 days (which obviously includes their rank's normal cooldown). To come off of reserves in a faction, you must not be an active member of another faction. While some people think that dual-factioning is alright, I'm not for it and believe a system that allows it could be abused.

Finally: if reserves return, it is a clean slate. We start anew and do not use old reserves lists. The only people who should be on those reserves after it's return will be current faction members and "now-resigned" faction leaders, both of which will require approval from their [new] faction leader and a manager.

No offense, you put a lot of time into this but this system is far to complicated.
 

1IC/2ICs who were there for a decent duration and actually did things or people who genuinely need reserves.

 

You can’t have an over complicated system because it’s gonna open up to loopholed or confusion. If you can’t explain the reserves system to a PVT in 30 seconds, it’s to complicated and completely unnecessary. Also this is by far no where near a compromise. 

 

@D_Rose @JimTrash you should lock this. This got out of hand

Edited June 20, 2020 by AlexConway

[D_Rose 431]

Going to be locking this until a decision gets finalized 

[D_Rose 431]

Your suggestion has been Denied
With the thought put into making this decision reserves wouldnt be the best for the server as of now, They may be implemented in a certain way.