Blooms ban appeal

[Westt 171]

For me, this comes down to a ''think twice before acting'' scenario. Why would you ever think about cheating on a Gmod server in the first place would be my question, but I know a lot of people do this these days - can't really blame you for that. Second of all, if the server wants to remain a liable image when it comes to cheating appeals, I am not going to +1 this unban. I will explain to you why.

If we were going to give you a second chance simply because you are a nice guy and contributed a lot to the server, it would go in against some other decisions that have been made. I saw Ozzy's case being referred to, but as Ozzy always has said himself - if it's becoming an issue for appeals against cheating, then just ban him. I completely agree with Ozzy's response as well, you cheated and got caught and you have to serve the punishment for it in my opinion. I am sure that you were aware of the consequences when you decided to use the actual cheats, regretting a decision you made is kinda sucky I am aware of that, but like I mentioned before: think twice before you actually do something like that. 

Morale of the story: Other cheaters haven't been unbanned and I think it's only fair towards others (who also have been nice people and contributed to the server) to not go along with this unban.

[Kurtle 298]

1: Personally, I have had no interactions with you, so take that as you will. However I've seen this thread devolve into an argument over the nature of cheating bans and wipes and appeals. We have said time and time again that ban appeals are not for apologies. I also believe that there is absolutely no reason to cheat on a Garry's Mod server. 

2: Realistically, the damage done by a cheater won't be that bad. The positive impact that a player has on a server can far overshadow the negatives. Based on what I've seen, you have committed a lot of time and smart ideas into the server, and the impact you left on players I know was positive.

3: the argument is also being raised that this unban will set a precedent. I believe that without a precedent, ban appeals can be taken over by feelings- something that should not be involved in staff matters- and personal prejudice. 

 

I cannot provide a +1 despite my personal feelings. I have not had any interaction with you, so it would be unwarranted. Cheating ban appeals should have an overall theme from the community(whether that be negative or positive). The fact that I am seeing many players that I personally respect give you +1's should be a sign that this ban should be rethought.

[Gythem 311]

On 5/6/2021 at 1:31 PM, AwesomeAidan0221 said:

I disagree. Situations like this should be taken case by case, the whole idea of precedents are stupid, all they do is allow people to use the overused argument of “Well this guy did the same thing and he is still banned”. Ever wonder why the Justice System has a range of Jail time for a crime, why they release on early probation? Because they know that every situation is different and all don’t merit the same punishment. The dude has already been banned for 1 year, I say it’s time to let him out on early probation.

I somewhat agree with what Aidan is saying here. I think it comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of what a "precedent" is. You mention the justice system, which does use precedents. An example of a precedent in the justice system would be "this person should be punished for committing this crime." Whether or not you are regretful, admit to it, etc, etc, you are going to be punished if you commit a crime. Good example on the server is Ozzy, he could've been permanently banned again, however his punishment was losing Super Admin and going down to Admin. Ozzy was still punished.

 

The exact definition of a precedent in law is: a court decision that is considered as authority for deciding subsequent cases involving identical or similar facts, or similar legal issues.

No where will you find the exact same sentencing for the same crime under DIFFERENT circumstances. This is because there is precedent surrounding that a person should be punished for committing a crime, but precedents can not be set when each circumstance is different. Circumstances create the timeframe of sentencing, parole/no parole, reduced sentencing under good behavior, etc. This is decided by the judge, in this case the judges are staff.

Basically, in this example, the precedent isn't the timeframe of the punishment it's whether or not you should be punished based off previous cases.

 

That being said the question becomes, have people been denied an appeal after only cheating for one war (claimed by blooms), admitting to it, and being regretful? That's the question you have to answer to find the current precedent. That's not to say precedents can't be broken, thus establishing a new precedent. As stated before Ozzy's case broke a precedent and established that cheating but contributing heavily to the server may earn a reduced punishment. Others have contributed in catching other cheaters and were unbanned for their service to the community, much like reduced sentencing for exposing others involved in criminal activities. Toxicity bans lost their precedent and a new precedent was established that if the community member had "reformed" themselves enough to return as a non-toxic member then they'd be unbanned (pretty sure this no longer stands but it was a thing for a little bit when D Rose was Manager).

 

I'm going to remain neutral as I'm pretty torn on the issue (which I think I made very clear). I just felt this may be valuable input and questioning in regards to this ban and precedents in general set on the server now and in the future.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Gythem

[Lucher 199]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:05 AM, Jared Cox said:

I think you may have misunderstood what @Drone was trying to say in his original comment.

Here is what Drone was referencing to:

Almost half-a-year ago, Ozzy easily could have been given a community ban for his role in the distribution of cheats and possible blackmail(?) whilst he was on the staff team (when the report was issued he was a SA on MRP), but was given a second chance by Garnet. (And @Ozzy please do not think I am trying to make you look bad/label you as a cheater, I thought your situation would be relevant to this reply and I know damn well you have changed your image and yourself for the better.)

If we could forget and forgive Ozzy's mistakes, give the man a second chance, then watch him contribute to the server and develop into the beloved Ozzy we know and like him for today, why not give blooms this same opportunity? And please do not use Ozzy's situation as an excuse to justify someone's wrongdoing's in every subsequent ban appeal for cheating because "well the current big manager man did a fuck-up before in his past so every denial of a ban appeal for cheating is hypocritical," I just believe blooms' situation is very different because of who I know the man to be. 

Now again, normally I would never comment something like this on a normal ban appeal, but I had already stated my +1 opinion on the matter previously. @AwesomeAidan0221 and I share the same opinions about blooms, and I thought he put my feelings well, so you can refer to his previous comments. If I truly felt blooms did this of malicious intent (which I know sounds weird considering he did cheat but again please refer to Aidan's comments), and/or if he chose to evade his ban, that is completely different. But I believe in this case we should maybe reconsider? He's been banned for a year, and I believe someone like him served his time, he paid his dues, he knows he fucked up, and I know his character would never want to do something controversial like this again, because that's who blooms is. I understand that we are strict on those who are cheaters, and I understand that many of us, including myself, have zero sympathies for those who have cheated, but for this very rare, one instance, please reconsider blooms' ban.

To combine what both you and Conway said, it's obviously apparent that cases like these dealing with known users cheating are becoming a more blatant example of "case by case basis", which I think is personally good way to handle things, but this method is in and of itself a double edged sword.

For example, Ozzy could have (and should have, following the standard of all cheating bans) been given a community ban on the spot, but due to a bias, he was given a second chance. Not everyone has access to this bias from the Owner of the community, and why these should be done via a case by case basis. (no, i'm not shitting on him, just using the most blatant case of the point im trying to make as well, a case)

My reasoning for this being a double edged sword is mainly due to the fact of cheaters who get on unbanned on most games can have a re-offense rate of over 50% in most cases, so it's safe to assume the same for this game as well. Why SHOULD we believe this person would never cheat again? Well why did we assume Ozzy would never cheat again? Or would never distribute cheats again? It wasn't likely Ozzy would retain the same level of trust he previously had but he managed to do that, and more, which is a good example of why these should be done by case by case basis. It's more based on how the player themselves have changed, if they aren't cheating anymore, or if they're just lying to themselves and their peers once again.

I think the fact blooms waited a full year and a few days to make this appeal shows that they wanted to pay their dues and rejoin the community when they felt they were ready to, not when they wanted to.

So in the end, +1 from me. I mean, if they do cheat again, it'll be a perm ban with no chance of re-appealing, so where's the harm in giving them a chance?

Edited May 8, 2021 by Lucher
fixing spelling errors

[Angry 14]

Neutral

Although I do believe everyone should be given a second chance after past mistakes, you still broke the rules. From your appeal its obvious that you wish to change and better yourself from your stupidity, but you took the risk and it didn't work out. The reason I'm staying neutral is because I myself have never had any past experiences and I'm unwilling to judge you from this one situation. From what I see you have many people vouching for you and if you really want to come back to the server then best of luck to you.

[AwesomeAidan0221 701]

3 hours ago, Tally said:

-1 Unbanning someone who cheated on the server might be the single most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. Honestly he should receive a ban from gmod itself and never be allowed to set foot on any gmod server in the future.

I don’t think you even understand how ironic your post is. (nothing against you Ozzy)

Warn me or hide this idc

[Maddox 99]

Personally, I am not a fan of letting someone who cheated back on the server. Now, it could also be said that I haven't been around long enough to understand the impact you may have had on the community in the past. Which is true. But, as many others have already stated, it could set a bad precedent of allowing vets who were banned to come back to the community, completely ignoring their past offences. But, if you were somehow bale to prove yourself, via a probationary period or something of the sort, I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of "reform program" that would allow players such as yourself to return to the community.

 

TL;DR:

NEUTRAL

[Jake 933]

Accepted

We believe you could be hugely beneficial to the community however due to the nature of your ban, you cannot be entirely trusted. You will be unbanned however you will be banned from partaking in war. You will be locked to Event jobs (AFSOC, GIGN, Taliban), if needed you may play on Army to train however you are still locked out of war.

Welcome back, hopefully this run is better.