Orange - Ban Appeal

[Mr_Fortnite 43]

In-game name: Orange
SteamID (https://steamid.io/): STEAM_0:0:119779823
Staff members in-game name: D rose
Staff members SteamID (/id (name): Can't get it
Date & Time of incident: 7:30
Timezone: PST
Ban Reason: NITRP
How long were you banned for?: 1 week
Proof of Ban: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1970126640
What happened? (include any proof): Apparently there is a 15 second rule on the server that you have to wait before killing someone in a claimed area. Since returning, I have read the MilitaryRP rules and this rule is not in the book.  This makes no sense to me. I shouldn't be banned for something i've never heard of. Another WO that was there with us did the exact same thing I did, and didn't even get a warning for it. Instead I am getting an NITRP ban
Why should your ban be removed?: I shouldn't have been banned. I was warned for something I was never aware of, and then banned for NITRP a second later. I don't even understand how I broke 3 rules in the first place, so you can explain that to me. I was banned for not following some made up rule. I went to Vil going to learn a jump to get on the mountain, we killed them and went to do our business. I was taken into a sit, and warned.  After I was kicked from the server, I was later given a ban. There was literally somebody let off without a warning and i'm here with a NITRP ban. This shouldn't have even been a warn in the first place. I would like to see the rulebook updated before im getting banned for bogus reasons. I cannot get the advert and kill logs, but staff on the server and solving the problem should be able to give proof as to why I was banned.

 

Rule: KOS Zones/Claims: You may claim any area of the map (apart from your own or the enemy’s base) as long as it is clear what you are claiming and it can be reasonably identified by other players. In addition, you may KOS said claimed area to those that are not in your faction or not authorized to be there, and kill them should they intrude on your claim, friendly or not. A faction has a claim until they unclaim it.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Orange
Adding the Rule as stated in the rulebook

[Mr_Fortnite 43]

1 minute ago, Alex Conway said:

-1 I heavily think this counts as "relevant information that could sway the final decision"... Considering the fact that you were permed at least twice and ban evaded multiple times and the only reason you were allowed to play was due to a ban wipe your next ban should be a permanent one. When someone comes from a ban wipe they are on one strike one kill, you get banned, it's a re-perm. The ban is definitely fair, you got too many warns, got kicked, the message states a ban may be given, you were given one... According to the rules and previous precedent you should be re-permed. 

You tell me how this is relevant information? I didn't even intend to kill the goat and the RU guy. We were trying to learn a jump onto a mountain. I've barely been back now and I don't understand how this is common knowledge. This so called "rule" isn't even in the MRP server rules. I don't understand how you expect me to know this information as a new/returning player. Also please tell me this Conway

EX: You are hosting tryouts. Somebody takes a step into your claimed area. Do you have to give them 15 seconds or do you kill them instantly.

It doesn't make sense. I want you to tell me how this rule works. It is such a gray area and undefined. If you are going to give me a warning/ban, you have to at least inform me of the so called "rule" before it is even possible for me to break it.

[Vac_ 174]

@Alex Conway is correct though? Isn’t he? If you were perma banned and were only unbanned due to a ban wave, then the next ban, no matter for what, should be a re-perma ban.  The ban for NITRP came after you were kicked for exceeding the /warn limit (a clarification on how many warns in a time period before they wipe would be useful) meaning you have been warned for breaking the rules multiple times in a short span of time.  (iirc the warns wipe weekly). 

 also, @Torch considering you were staff, you should already know that you are Not allowed to claim an area to  immediately kill someone without letting them become aware, that is called loopholing the RDM rule.  Claiming and killing has been a rule for a very long time due to incidents like this happening before. 

@Orange . Just because you didn’t “mean” to RDM the goat and RU  (as you stated) doesn’t mean it wasn’t punishable.  That isn’t excuse to avoid future punishments. 
Next, you said “For example: You’re hosting tryouts, someone steps into your claim, do you have 15 seconds or immediately kill them”.  That isn’t what the rule is, once you claim somewhere, if someone runs into the claim, and you claimed it as KOS, then yes, you can kill them.  The rule is that if someone is ALREADY IN the place while the place is unclaimed THEN, you claim, you can’t just kill them. 

You claim “How would I know if it was a rule or not”.. That’s your fault.  If you are new to the server and/or a returning player, it is Your responsibility to read the rules and to ask staff if you are unsure about something, you decided to assume it was Ok to kill the people instead of asking a staff if it was allowed. Considering you said “you have to inform me it’s a rule”. Anything that requires you to RDM someone, you should be taking extra precaution before continuing with that action. Especially if you are a returning player, don’t assume the rules are all the same.

 

-1 to this appeal (If Denied, the “ban wipe perma” rule (if correct as it has been talked about) (( need gildarts/garnet’s decision as I can’t recall )) I believe this should be a re-perma, not just a week)

[Ziggy 1,353]

1 hour ago, Alex Conway said:

Yes, the rule has always been in place

+1 Das crazy. Show me in the MilitaryRP Rules Thread where that rule is stated. I sure as hell cant find it. In fact, it literally says you can shoot players in your claim under the KOS Zones/Claims section. Get this Army General— the first ROE states that you can’t shoot anyone outside of a war, claim, or a raid. It ain’t under the tryouts section either, or anywhere else for that fact. 
 

5 hours ago, Vac_ said:

it is Your responsibility to read the rules 

You right. Which is probably why you should check them out. Nothing in there says anything about a 15 second warning on a claim. When I came back from the wipe and checked the rules, I didn’t see anything of the sort. I only heard of the rule from niggas who told me, which isn’t how I should be hearing about rules. I’m not sure if this was previously in the rules and now isn’t, or if it was a rule fabricated by the community over time, but I can tell you I’m damn sure this nigga doesn’t deserve a perma ban cause of an unwritten rule. 
 

Take this for example:

Back when I raided the MARSOC tryout on Marine Ramp, both Fupert and I were permanently banned for mass. Due to a specification not being in the rules, we were unbanned. This is exactly this type of situation. 
 

One more thing. Stop the shit where you’re talking about him getting a permanent ban. I get it, one ban after the wipe results in a perma, but this warn wasn’t even reasonable. Hence, address the issue at hand, which is Orange being warned on a false pretense.
 

(Don’t delete this either Conway, it’s completely relevant. It can change the sway of a staff verdict and id appreciate you keeping a response other than yours and Vac’s.)

Edited January 16, 2020 by {GG} Bishopil

[Kendal 450]

So from my knowledge on the situation (I spoke with MARSOC after Orange had been banned) he got a warn for Massing a claim. Claiming to mass has been a problem in the past which is why staff are now enforcing the rule that you must give players a chance to leave before killing them on your claim. He got the lenient punishment for massing a claim (a warn) and that warn kicked him from the server. He'd been previously kicked many times, this last kick was what prompted the ban. Correct me if im wrong on any of this, the talk we all had last night was a bit messy, everyone speaking over everyone so it was hard to get the story right.

Now from a staff point of view, using the warning system for what it is meant for is the right move. Warn players that do something wrong, they know not to do it again. However the rest of the warns that accumulated are what really did this whole thing in. If you get kicked repeatedly for exceeding the warn limit, a 1 week NITRP ban should be put into effect. What I am trying to get at here, is that his warning of the rule was the warning he recieved. The ban was for exceeding kick limit, not for the mass itself. Staff did warn him. It wouldn't be the banning staff members fault in this case that Orange accumulated that many warns in the first place. 

If staff was to not follow up on the warn kick ban, that essentially means warning players is pointless and there is no reason for the warn system to be on the server. That would mean that people constantly being warned for self damage, RDM, etc could get away with it. There is no line in the rule page pertaining to Self damage, but we still punish for it nonetheless. This is what the warn system is good for. Players that don't know the rule get a warning, they're told not to do it again. That's what happened with this ban. He was given a warning rather than a mass ban, it was the fact that he exceeded the kick limit that really did him in.

And that's all from a staff member's point of view on the situation, and why I don't believe the ban is unjust. Should these things be on the rule page? Yes. Better clarification in any circumstance for the rules is good for the community as a whole, but the warning that Orange received for Massing the claim was his warning. Unfortunately he had accumulated enough warns to be kicked from the server and receive a followed NITRP ban.

[Volatos 34]

He got banned for enforcing his claim on a specific point? There isn't a written rule stating that you must wait a specified amount of time in order to KOS on your claim. This is completely unfair to ban for NITRP, which isn't a relevant ban if it was supposedly massing on a claimed area. To keep this ban would create the precedent that staff can enforce rules that aren't written in the server rules. This would created such a shift in admin powers, to allow them to decide on sits to their own rules and their imagination would facilitate such an unfair dynamic of power within the staff team. To top that off, to my knowledge he had only killed two people, so the maximum punishment he would get should be RDM x2 and a 10 minute sit. I would like to understand why the ban was put in as NITRP for killing two people on his own claim when it isn't a specified rule. Either get Garnet to edit the rules, or don't allow staff to decide on sits with rules they create from their mind that don't follow the server rules. This ban cannot stay in place because he was banned for a rule that doesn't exist.

[Mr_Fortnite 43]

1 hour ago, Milton said:

So from my knowledge on the situation (I spoke with MARSOC after Orange had been banned) he got a warn for Massing a claim. Claiming to mass has been a problem in the past which is why staff are now enforcing the rule that you must give players a chance to leave before killing them on your claim. He got the lenient punishment for massing a claim (a warn) and that warn kicked him from the server. He'd been previously kicked many times, this last kick was what prompted the ban. Correct me if im wrong on any of this, the talk we all had last night was a bit messy, everyone speaking over everyone so it was hard to get the story right.

Now from a staff point of view, using the warning system for what it is meant for is the right move. Warn players that do something wrong, they know not to do it again. However the rest of the warns that accumulated are what really did this whole thing in. If you get kicked repeatedly for exceeding the warn limit, a 1 week NITRP ban should be put into effect. What I am trying to get at here, is that his warning of the rule was the warning he recieved. The ban was for exceeding kick limit, not for the mass itself. Staff did warn him. It wouldn't be the banning staff members fault in this case that Orange accumulated that many warns in the first place. 

If staff was to not follow up on the warn kick ban, that essentially means warning players is pointless and there is no reason for the warn system to be on the server. That would mean that people constantly being warned for self damage, RDM, etc could get away with it. There is no line in the rule page pertaining to Self damage, but we still punish for it nonetheless. This is what the warn system is good for. Players that don't know the rule get a warning, they're told not to do it again. That's what happened with this ban. He was given a warning rather than a mass ban, it was the fact that he exceeded the kick limit that really did him in.

And that's all from a staff member's point of view on the situation, and why I don't believe the ban is unjust. Should these things be on the rule page? Yes. Better clarification in any circumstance for the rules is good for the community as a whole, but the warning that Orange received for Massing the claim was his warning. Unfortunately he had accumulated enough warns to be kicked from the server and receive a followed NITRP ban.

The warn is definitely unjust. I shouldn’t have gotten a warn for following server rules. There is nothing in the rules that says I have to wait however many seconds before following a claim. I don’t understand how I RDMd if the claim said KOS Unwanted. Our sole purpose for the claim was not to RDM either, it was to climb a mountain

-=- 

FailRP concerns the self damage thing you are talking about. There is nothing that concerns the “however many second” rule on the server 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Orange

[Ziggy 1,353]

2 hours ago, Milton said:

which is why staff are now enforcing the rule 

Oh shit dawg. Staff can just enforce unwritten rules now? I don’t understand the thought process behind this. Just because staff collectively enforce a rule, doesn’t make it a rule. If all of the staff agree to warn people for having unrealistic names, all the warns they give are false. There’s a section on a staff application that asks if you’ve read the server rules. Guess why? Because the staff have those rules to enforce and be familiar with. 

2 hours ago, Milton said:

It wouldn't be the banning staff members fault in this case that Orange accumulated that many warns in the first place. 

Okay, it isn’t their fault? So what? It doesn’t matter in the end because Orange wouldn’t have ever been banned, if he wasn’t given that false warn. Your point is that Orange brought the ban upon himself by exceeding the warn limit, but he wouldn’t have ever exceeded it if he didn’t get the warn. You feel me? 
 

2 hours ago, Milton said:

essentially means warning players is pointless and there is no reason for the warn system to be on the server. 

Now you don’t make a damn bit of sense. The warn system is used for warning players so they don’t break a rule again, correct. But the entire basis of the warn being false because it isn’t in the rules, means that an unruly banned was given. That point alone contradicts your entire argument that it isn’t the staff’s fault he was banned. It was and it wasn’t. It wasn’t the staff’s fault that he got previous warns, but it was the staff’s fault that he got a false warn that led to his ban. 
 

2 hours ago, Milton said:

There is no line in the rule page pertaining to Self damage, but we still punish for it nonetheless. 

Yeah, there is. It’s called FailRP. When I fire a fucking rocket at my feet, I’m gone nigga. There’s no comin back from that shit. That’s why it’s considered FailRP. Now, you might make the argument that gunning down a recruit after failing a training is FailRP, but that wouldn’t be true because the rules literally contradict that theory and allow it to happen. 
 

2 hours ago, Milton said:

Should these things be on the rule page? Yes.

Case closed, dawg. You can’t allow a ban like this to remain when one of the factors were because of an unwritten rule. That’s why my +1 is staying and it should stay for everybody else. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by {GG} Bishopil
Put -1 by accident my b

[AwesomeAidan0221 701]

Denied

The warn you had received for killing two people on a claim was not false. I am surprised that the SS of logs showing the advert and kills have not been posted yet so here they are.

If you look at the time stamps, the kills take place 2 seconds after the advert. In that time frame, the people on the claim do not have sufficient amount of time to even read the advert let alone get off of the claim.

Another point I am seeing being argued within this thread is that "It is not in the rules". This rules has been around for while and I personally have previously made a suggestion asking to put this rule within the rule book for better clarification towards the player base. Gildarts later responded with this

This rule is not within the rules book because it falls under "Loopholing" . It does not need to be directly stated and it has been around for awhile. You have to give players on a claim a substantial amount of time to get off of the claim, in this case, you provided them with only 2 seconds. The 1 Week ban for NITRP will remain.

@Gildarts  @Alex Conway Lock and Move

Edited January 16, 2020 by AwesomeAidan