Staff Conduct, Attitude, and Professionalism

[Ziggy 1,353]

Today I’m addressing an issue I’ve seen around the forums/in game for a long time.
 

That issue pertains to the staff members attitude towards the community when a potentially poorly thought out thread is posted. - 1.1

That issue pertains to staff members banning players with insufficient evidence over obviously debatable cases -1.2

That issue pertains to staff members replying to appeals with posts that imply undoubtedly that the person at hand is ‘guilty’, even before evidence is provided - 1.3 

That issue pertains to staff members, (hate to actually be saying this), literally posting memes on genuine threads - 1.4 

 

We’ll go issue by issue, address why it’s a problem, and what the staff team can do to fix it. I’m not going to call anyone out in particular, but I will post screenshots for example purposes. Names are cropped out, but you should know who you are. 
 

The first issue (1.1):
Ive seen administrators in recent time respond very poorly to poorly thought out suggestions. What do I mean? I’m talkin about when a potentially new/inexperienced player posts a thread/suggestion that maybe isn’t the brightest due to minimal time spent with the community/forums. 
On a recent suggestion thread about our communication platform, these were posted: 

On a different thread:

These are all very condescending to an inexperienced player who, most likely, only recently joined any sort of GG communication platform. If this isn’t enough, we’re coming back to this in 1.4, where I’ll explain this incident further. Anyways, I hate to see this “criticism” delivered to new players who simply thought they were giving the community a suggestion to ponder over. Why? I know if it was me, fresh to the community, posting a suggestion on the forums — I wouldn’t want the players I should be looking up to, to be passive aggressive and condescending. I can’t imagine these types of posts are “eye-opening”, much less deliver the intended message behind them, which is to explain to the user why their suggestion isn’t going to happen. What are they going to take away from this? They’re probably going to focus more on the disrespect, rather than actually retaining the information. 

These examples don’t just represent one staff member, it’s just what I gathered off of a single thread I looked at. I could find plenty more examples, but I hope this is enough for everyone to catch the drift. 
 

The second issue (1.2):

I want to address this issue as quick as possible, because it really shouldn’t exist in the first place. I’m really tired of seeing appeals being accepted. They shouldn’t be in reality, right? Everyone should be justly banned, with sufficient evidence, and with undeniably accurate ban reason. The only reason an appeal should ever be accepted is if there is a grey area in the rules or something of the sort. 
I strongly believe that if a ban/warn is appealed, then the staff member that was tried against should receive a punishment. Why? It would motivate staff members to be careful about their bans, potentially decrease blatant witch-hunt cases, and ensure that as much undeniable evidence as possible is gathered before a string is put in. 
 

The third issue (1.3):

This is a double threat problem I see constantly when it comes to appeals. I don’t know how many times it needs to be emphasized that you cannot convict someone of breaking the rules, without undeniable evidence. The other half of this is when an appeal is actually posted, the staff typically reply as if the user is guilty by default. Take this for example: 

Again, just one example of this issue. “Trying to attack the staff team for a ban does not make you any less guilty”, is not the correct thing to say on an appeal. That’s implying that Jackal was guilty, but the appeal ended up being accepted. It’s also especially concerning when a forum administrator uses their power to delete their own accusation post, to avoid looking bad. Another example: 

In this appeal, Silo was banned for cheating for hitting a single fishy shot. Eventually, he was unbanned after a “day and a half of testing”, which should have been done before he was even banned. This is a really big issue for a couple of reasons. It brings potentially unwanted attention to the user, in a way it defames them/their reputation, and the player is losing actual time in game because they literally cannot log on even though they were innocent. 
 

The fourth and (basically) final issue (1.4):

Now I said I would go back to 1.1 with this, which the examples below were evidently posted on the same communication platform suggestion. 

This is literally straight out of staff members posts. Keep in mind, this suggestion was a real one, and not in shitpost central. These members of our administration are quite literally posting memes at the end of their posts. Why this is an issue should be crystal clear, but I’ll explain it anyways. The user who made this thread sees a couple of things when this happens:

1. Administrators representing themselves and their opinions with memes. 
2. Condescending posts that belittle their intelligence. 
 

Refer back to 1.1 as to why using condescending and passive aggressive tones discourage someone from contributing more to the community. 
 

Resolution : What would I like to see out of this? 
1. Punishments for false bans/warns 

2. Punishments for misconduct and lack of professionalism in game and on forums

3. Reform/Addition of the staff rules, where the points above are addressed with respective punishments. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by {GG} Bishopil
Added an image

[Ziggy 1,353]

Just now, Im Dream said:

some of your images are not working

I’ll fix them, one second. 

[Entity 357]

3 minutes ago, Bishopil said:

This is literally straight out of staff members posts. Keep in mind, this suggestion was a real one, and not in shitpost central. These members of our administration are quite literally posting memes at the end of their posts. Why this is an issue should be crystal clear, but I’ll explain it anyways. The user who made this thread sees a couple of things when this happens:

1. Administrators representing themselves and their opinions with memes. 
2. Condescending posts that belittle their intelligence. 

You know, some of these points I'd like for DarkRP as well. But this one is just quite silly. Who plays games to be completely professional and not have fun? Memes brighten everyone's day and are just there for an extra kick.  Posting a picture on your reply isn't an "issue" it's rather just not necessary, I guess.

Quite literally all teams need to brighten up if any change. I've seen examples from all of Garnet's servers of staff being completely toxic. Being more professional isn't a big issue imo. To be honest, I see where you're going from on this post but I'd rather see people poke fun at each other than be super condescending you know?

[Aparh 383]

8 minutes ago, Bishopil said:

Today I’m addressing an issue I’ve seen around the forums/in game for a long time.
 

That issue pertains to the staff members attitude towards the community when a potentially poorly thought out thread is posted. - 1.1

That issue pertains to staff members banning players with insufficient evidence over obviously debatable cases -1.2

That issue pertains to staff members replying to appeals with posts that imply undoubtedly that the person at hand is ‘guilty’, even before evidence is provided - 1.3 

That issue pertains to staff members, (hate to actually be saying this), literally posting memes on genuine threads - 1.4 

 

We’ll go issue by issue, address why it’s a problem, and what the staff team can do to fix it. I’m not going to call anyone out in particular, but I will post screenshots for example purposes. Names are cropped out, but you should know who you are. 

The first issue (1.1):
Ive seen administrators in recent time respond very poorly to poorly thought out suggestions. What do I mean? I’m talkin about when a potentially new/inexperienced player posts a thread/suggestion that maybe isn’t the brightest due to minimal time spent with the community/forums. 
On a recent suggestion thread about our communication platform, these were posted: 

On a different thread:

These are all very condescending to an inexperienced player who, most likely, only recently joined any sort of GG communication platform. If this isn’t enough, we’re coming back to this in 1.4, where I’ll explain this incident further. Anyways, I hate to see this “criticism” delivered to new players who simply thought they were giving the community a suggestion to ponder over. Why? I know if it was me, fresh to the community, posting a suggestion on the forums — I wouldn’t want the players I should be looking up to, to be passive aggressive and condescending. I can’t imagine these types of posts are “eye-opening”, much less deliver the intended message behind them, which is to explain to the user why their suggestion isn’t going to happen. What are they going to take away from this? They’re probably going to focus more on the disrespect, rather than actually retaining the information. 

These examples don’t just represent one staff member, it’s just what I gathered off of a single thread I looked at. I could find plenty more examples, but I hope this is enough for everyone to catch the drift. 
 

The second issue (1.2):

I want to address this issue as quick as possible, because it really shouldn’t exist in the first place. I’m really tired of seeing appeals being accepted. They shouldn’t be in reality, right? Everyone should be justly banned, with sufficient evidence, and with undeniably accurate ban reason. The only reason an appeal should ever be accepted is if there is a grey area in the rules or something of the sort. 
I strongly believe that if a ban/warn is appealed, then the staff member that was tried against should receive a punishment. Why? It would motivate staff members to be careful about their bans, potentially decrease blatant witch-hunt cases, and ensure that as much undeniable evidence as possible is gathered before a string is put in. 
 

The third issue (1.3):

This is a double threat problem I see constantly when it comes to appeals. I don’t know how many times it needs to be emphasized that you cannot convict someone of breaking the rules, without undeniable evidence. The other half of this is when an appeal is actually posted, the staff typically reply as if the user is guilty by default. Take this for example: 

Again, just one example of this issue. “Trying to attack the staff team for a ban does not make you any less guilty”, is not the correct thing to say on an appeal. That’s implying that Jackal was guilty, but the appeal ended up being accepted. It’s also especially concerning when a forum administrator uses their power to delete their own accusation post, to avoid looking bad. Another example: 

In this appeal, Silo was banned for cheating for hitting a single fishy shot. Eventually, he was unbanned after a “day and a half of testing”, which should have been done before he was even banned. This is a really big issue for a couple of reasons. It brings potentially unwanted attention to the user, in a way it defames them/their reputation, and the player is losing actual time in game because they literally cannot log on even though they were innocent. 
 

The fourth and (basically) final issue (1.4):

Now I said I would go back to 1.1 with this, which the examples below were evidently posted on the same communication platform suggestion. 

 

This is literally straight out of staff members posts. Keep in mind, this suggestion was a real one, and not in shitpost central. These members of our administration are quite literally posting memes at the end of their posts. Why this is an issue should be crystal clear, but I’ll explain it anyways. The user who made this thread sees a couple of things when this happens:

1. Administrators representing themselves and their opinions with memes. 
2. Condescending posts that belittle their intelligence. 
 

Refer back to 1.1 as to why using condescending and passive aggressive tones discourage someone from contributing more to the community. 
 

Resolution : What would I like to see out of this? 
1. Punishments for false bans/warns 

2. Punishments for misconduct and lack of professionalism in game and on forums

3. Reform/Addition of the staff rules, where the points above are addressed with respective punishments. 

Honestly +1 staff team needs to act more professional. I like that you made this a lot. I also admit i've done this before, this post made me reflect a lot more on how i speak on forums as a staff. Overall, good shit bishop

[eXg-Buddha 729]

10 minutes ago, Bishopil said:

On a different thread:

These are all very condescending to an inexperienced player who, most likely, only recently joined any sort of GG communication platform. If this isn’t enough, we’re coming back to this in 1.4, where I’ll explain this incident further. Anyways, I hate to see this “criticism” delivered to new players who simply thought they were giving the community a suggestion to ponder over. Why? I know if it was me, fresh to the community, posting a suggestion on the forums — I wouldn’t want the players I should be looking up to, to be passive aggressive and condescending. I can’t imagine these types of posts are “eye-opening”, much less deliver the intended message behind them, which is to explain to the user why their suggestion isn’t going to happen. What are they going to take away from this? They’re probably going to focus more on the disrespect, rather than actually retaining the information. 

 

Admitting fault where its due. That post above is my own, and I want to take full responsibility on that one. I was in a bad state of mind at the time, and it in no way warrants my disrespectful undertone. Staff do need to act professional where professionalism matters, and I shouldn't have posted what I posted on that user's staff application. If you feel what you're saying is toxic or unneeded, then it shouldn't have been said. Call me Captain Hindsight, but what I did was wrong, and the posts of many others have been inconsiderate and inappropriate to the OPs and other Forum users. 

+1, respect and maturity should be upheld on the forums, and needs to be prioritized among the staff team.

[Ziggy 1,353]

5 minutes ago, Entity said:

You know, some of these points I'd like for DarkRP as well. But this one is just quite silly. Who plays games to be completely professional and not have fun? Memes brighten everyone's day and are just there for an extra kick.  Posting a picture on your reply isn't an "issue" it's rather just not necessary, I guess.

Quite literally all teams need to brighten up if any change. I've seen examples from all of Garnet's servers of staff being completely toxic. Being more professional isn't a big issue imo. To be honest, I see where you're going from on this post but I'd rather see people poke fun at each other than be super condescending you know?

The issue isn’t that they’re not professional 24/7. It’s that it’s a new player who genuinely thought they were making a suggestion. They don’t know any better, clearly, and having the few people who respond be passive aggressive isn’t a good thing. Another thing, it isn’t shitpost central. That’s where you post to have fun with minimal risk of consequence. This was a real suggestion, where administrators who are held to a higher standard, responded with memes. 

[Soappppp 220]

I'll state this, relating to the suggestion, it's unfortunate that this had to be made. I 100% agree with everything you said, every single one of these points is valid and the evidence provided is sufficient. On the MRP Staff Meeting tomorrow, although I won't be there, i'll make sure to have this point talked about and discussed. 

I entirely agree with members of our administration not handling suggestions properly. The member believed the suggestion was valid and didn't make it out of clear ill-intent. I had a conversation with the player in-game afterwards and was able to help him clarify some of his own points. Administration members need to realize, even if we think something is absolutely stupid, the manner that we go about denying it/debating it needs to be professional. As we are a EXAMPLE FOR THE COMMUNITY. I'm a little upset this had to even be posted, but I agree with your intent entirely. 

Very well thought out post and well written, I hope this type of thing is reviewed in the staff meeting tomorrow. Well done Bishop. +1, although i'm not sure what exactly will be implemented, I think these things need re-addressed. As our Administration team could benefit from this information. Good job.

[IAreGunner 268]

I think this is a great suggestion , But I definitely thought you should have brought this up to the higher administrators first, you could have done either one. there's more just sounds like to me a more wake up call to the higher administrators to take further action , It's in I believe both staff applications do you have a way to record or screenshot. I definitely think staff members who are being immature on the forums should definitely be something that we should address more, especially when they do it on the more serious threads.   I definitely think that when I suggestion thread comes in it should be handled maturely and it should be responses that include why you agree or disagree with both explaining why. 

Both servers need to start really enforcing screenshot and video of the incident that got a person banned, people are just being cocky with it because they're being so sure that all this person's not going to appeal it.  

I definitely think this is a wake up call to really all staff members too and I'm not going to Target certain ones we're a team we're supposed to work as a team. especially we're supposed to make the server a better place for the users that play on it and for the new users that come on it server, forums everywhere.  

 

Overall great suggestion I definitely hope that this kind of changes something for all servers especially with the ban appeals That's been clear issue out of late +1

[PraetorDon 485]

I will say that MRP staff, for the most part, generally try to remain unbiased and professional as possible. There will always be outliers, but one of the main instances of this has been dealt with. I'm not going to comment on other branch's staff members, because I don't interact with them enough to know how they operate.

Obviously, some of us are more professional than others, whether due to age, experience, or both, but that's the nature of the beast. The general population of the server is teenagers, so with that in mind, the standards set need to be realistic. 

Going to speak with real world experience here; leaders in the workplace who made a bunch of strict rules and regulations to how they operate found that their teams worked less efficiently and have had a harder time getting people to work together. I have been affected by this, and also I have made this mistake when leading my team. 

I do agree however that standard guidelines need to be set for evidence collecting, such as no less than three clips for a cheating permaban. That being said,  making rules that punish staff members for doing their jobs will backfire. Instead, why not attempt to correct the mistake for next time.

If a ban appeal is accepted, the head of operators should go over the ban with the staff member responsible for the ban and see what could have been done differently. That information could be shared with the entire operator team if deemed necessary. 

The main points of my thread are thus. Yes, staff members should be held to a higher standard than the average player, but at the same time, we shouldn't expect corporate-level professionalism, this is a volunteer position. Issues of misconduct should be a teaching and learning opportunity, punishment should only be used for extreme misconduct, such as Jackal's ban.

It's important to take enjoyment and pride in what you do, it's much more difficult to do that in a draconian environment than a laid-back one.

[Ziggy 1,353]

1 hour ago, PraetorDon said:

It's important to take enjoyment and pride in what you do, it's much more difficult to do that in a draconian environment than a laid-back one.

Two staff members have commented on this thread with the same worry of a “corporate-level professionalism”, which makes very little sense to me. At no point did I suggest super strict guidelines, much less anything that would be “too strict”. There is a huge difference between having/poking fun, than just being unhelpful and condescending. At no point did I state that administrators would have to keep a 100% serious “work” environment, because yes, that would be ridiculous. If you were new and posted a suggestion that you thought was valid, would you want bland memes as a response? 
 

Your suggestions about banning players keep the exact same issues in play. You need to understand that a player shouldn’t lose available playtime over a false ban and have to wait for an appeal to be answered. 
I’m specifically wondering about 

1 hour ago, PraetorDon said:

That being said, making rules that punish staff members for doing their jobs will backfire. 

This simply isn’t the case. It isn’t a punishment for doing their job, it’s a punishment for failing to do their job properly. 
 

By the way, the real life experience example you provided wouldn’t apply to a forum/gmod server. I know what you were attempting to go for, but these are two very different environments. 

[shrimp 764]

9 hours ago, Entity said:

Who plays games to be completely professional and not have fun?

I think he means 'Stop being dickheads to random players on the forums'. 

[PraetorDon 485]

Just now, shrimp said:

I think he means 'Stop being dickheads to random players on the forums'. 

I agree with this, as well as most of what Bishop said. 

9 minutes ago, Bishopil said:

Two staff members have commented on this thread with the same worry of a “corporate-level professionalism”, which makes very little sense to me. At no point did I suggest super strict guidelines, much less anything that would be “too strict”. There is a huge difference between having/poking fun, than just being unhelpful and condescending. At no point did I state that administrators would have to keep a 100% serious “work” environment, because yes, that would be ridiculous. If you were new and posted a suggestion that you thought was valid, would you want bland memes as a response? 

It wasn't a criticism of what you said specifically, I think you made a very valid post, which is why I didn't quote any of your points with a dissenting opinion.

I was just making a point that when making rules and ideas, it's important to keep a gaming community environment fun  and inviting. Again, it wasn't targeted, it was just my general opinion.

[Godfather 41]

+1
I skipped all of the replies so far, but reading them seemed unnecessary to comment on this suggestion; therefore, forgive me if my take on this has already been posted.

The suggestion identifies a lot of REAL problems, there is no denying that.  These instances of staff misconduct might not have a true origin, but we can certainly assume it's because of leniency on executive's part over the past year.  This suggestion should pass because it makes sense, not just from a point where staff should be the players they want the players to be (behavior-wise),  but from a point were it's just actually enforcing staff rules.

Allow me to elaborate:
It is also because of the problems clearly outlined by Bishop that the recruiting process for staff is (intended to be) in-depth: so we can hear what is thought of that person by the most important party, the community.  This is done during application process so we can understand if they are a good fit for staff, before they can deal damage to the server's reputation.  Pretty basic, but it seems the standards or criteria for applying for staff has gone down.  This could be highlighted by either a large influx of staff, or just the behavior problems we see now.  Either way, something needs to be done, and therefore, +1.

Edit: I'd like to add that the MRP staff team spoke about these issues in the meeting today (2/22/2020).

Edited February 23, 2020 by Timid

[Ziggy 1,353]

6 hours ago, Godfather said:

Edit: I'd like to add that the MRP staff team spoke about these issues in the meeting today (2/22/2020).

Could you tell me about any progress that was made during the meeting and what was said? If there was a significant amount of progress, then this suggestion would basically be accepted anyway.

[Godfather 41]

22 minutes ago, Bishopil said:

what was said

We discussed the issues you presented and the manager reported that:

1. The staff strike system will be in place. (Including on-server punishments such as bans being removal and such)
2. Staff forums posts will also be moderated by other staff.
3. The process of bans will be dealt carefully; all and any player/staff bans will rely on deniable evidence. (Eg: exploiting/fast-firing require videos on clear evidence)