basing rule change

[mossly 144]

desc: reduce amount of keypadded fade doors allowed by 1

reason: will make it easier for bases to be raided without being easily exploitable like some of the other suggestions 

raiding is currently too hard and it isn't due to skill, it is because the rules are stacked too heavily in the defender's favor. they should favor base defense but not to the extent they currently do

preemptive counter to "b-but people have bases duped already" is those people can paste their base, remove a door, and then re-save it

[StraightWhiteChristianMale 563]

-1 basing with printers is probably less than 1% of my playtime on the server, and I still think this shouldn't happen. The server has been this way for multiple years and changing this rule would cause confusion and outrage

[mossly 144]

2 minutes ago, StraightWhiteChristianMale said:

-1 basing with printers is probably less than 1% of my playtime on the server, and I still think this shouldn't happen. The server has been this way for multiple years and changing this rule would cause confusion and outrage

"it's always been this way" isn't a valid response

ofc it has always been this way, which is why this is a Suggestion thread and not a "when we open the new server we should make this an initial rule" thread

[ChrisRid 900]

-1

While I understand the desire to make raiding bases easier from a raiders perspective, I don't think this is the right solution for a few reasons.

Firstly, I'd like to expand on what StraightWhiteChristianMale has said about the number of fading doors always having been 4. While it may come across as petty to say that people dislike change and "it's always been like that", the truth is that players have got used to the way things are over the years and enjoy the basing rules, having made a number of dupes over the years to fit perfectly in different spots around the map with their doorways in optimal places through trial and error. It would be very easy to disregard their thoughts and feelings when implementing a change to the rules, but it's likely you'll see them jump servers or play other games if the changes are too great (a lot of the major basers have already gone) given that many DarkRP servers allow 4 fading doors and Garnet is not unique in allowing 4. It will also work with the reverse effect, allowing dupes that people have made elsewhere on other servers with the same map to work on this server without any adaptation. While I am aware that there's a number of servers which only allow 3, many more allow 4. (before you ask and as a reminder to others, lets not name drop other servers here).

Secondly, it's important to understand that a base should be difficult to raid with the balance tipped in the defenders favour, with good reason. The time and cost of setting up a base in order to turn a profit is high, and if there was a good chance they would be raided before they could even turn a profit then what would be the point in trying? To give you some idea, it takes 1 hour just to break even after fully upgrading a printer, not including the time to set up a base and organise buying printers off others. For me personally, it takes me 30 mins to get setup, perhaps another 15-20 mins if I'm buying printers off others, and 1 hour to break even with upgrades. That's between 1.5-2 hours of gameplay before making any profit. So while it's not everyone's idea of fun, basers are happy to spend this time setting up because they know that as long as they do everything right, they'll make money. If the balance is tipped back the other way, even just the uncertainty will deter players from basing at all. 

If basers become uncertain with whether they'll make money by farming (basing) then it's likely they won't risk it, given there can be millions at stake. Basers often make up a decent percentage of the population, even if their freinds are all AFK because they've bought their printers, it's still pushing Garnet DarkRP higher up the tables. If you remember when the basers left CityRP, the drop in population was difficult to ignore and it has a knock-on effect that new and active players are more likely to join servers with a higher population.

The way raiders successfully raid bases is either through strategy or by chance of the baser being distracted. As far as strategy goes, I've been victim to some of the greatest raiders, for example there was one who noticed that everytime I collected from my printers I would also then (as a meth manufacturer) go to the meth NPC to trade in the meth at the same time. A keen eye caught me out and all it took was a periodic look at the TAB menu to see if my money had gone up, at which point the base was unguarded. I could give other examples of very good strategies (but I don't really want to get raided lol) but use your imagination, that's what's so great about a social game like DarkRP.
On the other side though, distraction has made a fool of many a baser over the years, and it's all too easy to 'quickly grab a coffee' or 'pop out for a cigarette' and all of a sudden a brand new level 1 player has made several million from my printers! For me at least, my attention is highest during the first few hours, and lowest towards the end of my farming session, at which point I become unphased with being raided and will be complacent at protecting my printers, allowing many opportunities for those who try their luck at raiding.
My point is, even with 2 fading doors and a HK-45, I'm pretty confident that I could adequately defend my base, providing I'm paying attention and anticipate the strategies others employ. The other 2 doors are for that very reason, for those moments when I'm watching a YouTube video and don't immediately realise I'm being raided. With that said, the uncertainty of basing with fewer than 4 fading doors puts me off the idea of basing at all, despite the fact it doesn't really change the odds if I'm on the ball, and if I'm not then chances are a raider would get in anyways.

Counter Suggestion

In an effort to be as open-minded as possible, I have a counter suggestion that might help with raiding while not totally discouraging basers from trying to make money. What if for each prestige level, the keypad cracker worked 2% faster? This encourages people to prestige and rewards those who already have, by giving them an edge which is reflected in their proficiency of cracking keypads. If you were say prestige 5 as an example, this could mean a decent 10% advantage when keypad cracking, and at prestige 10 you have a 20% advantage! For the highest currently prestige player I know at 20, they would have a 40% advantage!! Just an idea though, trying to find a reasonable compromise which I feel we'd be more comfortable with.

[mossly 144]

48 minutes ago, ChrisRid said:

-1

While I understand the desire to make raiding bases easier from a raiders perspective, I don't think this is the right solution for a few reasons.

Firstly, I'd like to expand on what StraightWhiteChristianMale has said about the number of fading doors always having been 4. While it may come across as petty to say that people dislike change and "it's always been like that", the truth is that players have got used to the way things are over the years and enjoy the basing rules, having made a number of dupes over the years to fit perfectly in different spots around the map with their doorways in optimal places through trial and error. It would be very easy to disregard their thoughts and feelings when implementing a change to the rules, but it's likely you'll see them jump servers or play other games if the changes are too great (a lot of the major basers have already gone) given that many DarkRP servers allow 4 fading doors and Garnet is not unique in allowing 4. It will also work with the reverse effect, allowing dupes that people have made elsewhere on other servers with the same map to work on this server without any adaptation. While I am aware that there's a number of servers which only allow 3, many more allow 4. (before you ask and as a reminder to others, lets not name drop other servers here).

Secondly, it's important to understand that a base should be difficult to raid with the balance tipped in the defenders favour, with good reason. The time and cost of setting up a base in order to turn a profit is high, and if there was a good chance they would be raided before they could even turn a profit then what would be the point in trying? To give you some idea, it takes 1 hour just to break even after fully upgrading a printer, not including the time to set up a base and organise buying printers off others. For me personally, it takes me 30 mins to get setup, perhaps another 15-20 mins if I'm buying printers off others, and 1 hour to break even with upgrades. That's between 1.5-2 hours of gameplay before making any profit. So while it's not everyone's idea of fun, basers are happy to spend this time setting up because they know that as long as they do everything right, they'll make money. If the balance is tipped back the other way, even just the uncertainty will deter players from basing at all. 

If basers become uncertain with whether they'll make money by farming (basing) then it's likely they won't risk it, given there can be millions at stake. Basers often make up a decent percentage of the population, even if their freinds are all AFK because they've bought their printers, it's still pushing Garnet DarkRP higher up the tables. If you remember when the basers left CityRP, the drop in population was difficult to ignore and it has a knock-on effect that new and active players are more likely to join servers with a higher population.

The way raiders successfully raid bases is either through strategy or by chance of the baser being distracted. As far as strategy goes, I've been victim to some of the greatest raiders, for example there was one who noticed that everytime I collected from my printers I would also then (as a meth manufacturer) go to the meth NPC to trade in the meth at the same time. A keen eye caught me out and all it took was a periodic look at the TAB menu to see if my money had gone up, at which point the base was unguarded. I could give other examples of very good strategies (but I don't really want to get raided lol) but use your imagination, that's what's so great about a social game like DarkRP.
On the other side though, distraction has made a fool of many a baser over the years, and it's all too easy to 'quickly grab a coffee' or 'pop out for a cigarette' and all of a sudden a brand new level 1 player has made several million from my printers! For me at least, my attention is highest during the first few hours, and lowest towards the end of my farming session, at which point I become unphased with being raided and will be complacent at protecting my printers, allowing many opportunities for those who try their luck at raiding.
My point is, even with 2 fading doors and a HK-45, I'm pretty confident that I could adequately defend my base, providing I'm paying attention and anticipate the strategies others employ. The other 2 doors are for that very reason, for those moments when I'm watching a YouTube video and don't immediately realise I'm being raided. With that said, the uncertainty of basing with fewer than 4 fading doors puts me off the idea of basing at all, despite the fact it doesn't really change the odds if I'm on the ball, and if I'm not then chances are a raider would get in anyways.

Counter Suggestion

In an effort to be as open-minded as possible, I have a counter suggestion that might help with raiding while not totally discouraging basers from trying to make money. What if for each prestige level, the keypad cracker worked 2% faster? This encourages people to prestige and rewards those who already have, by giving them an edge which is reflected in their proficiency of cracking keypads. If you were say prestige 5 as an example, this could mean a decent 10% advantage when keypad cracking, and at prestige 10 you have a 20% advantage! For the highest currently prestige player I know at 20, they would have a 40% advantage!! Just an idea though, trying to find a reasonable compromise which I feel we'd be more comfortable with.

Making the already-most-powerful players get another buff is probably not a good solution

 

The thing with this suggestion is all dupes would largely still be usable; just delete one door and use Push/Pull to adjust spacing

 

I do thank you for actual responses, though; it irks me when people just dismiss things out of hand and esp. in the section of the forum made for changes

 

If people are going to -1 things because "it's always been this way" then no /actual/ changes aside from hats will ever be made

[ChrisRid 900]

6 minutes ago, mossly said:

Making the already-most-powerful players get another buff is probably not a good solution

Similarly though, low-level players generally make bases which are much easier to raid. So when you look at equal stats of raiders and basers:

New players: Make (often) easy to raid bases and are matched with their raiding ability
Experienced players: Make difficult to raid bases but (with my counter suggestion) have an increased ability to crack keypads

I think this would give a fair solution

[mossly 144]

1 minute ago, ChrisRid said:

Similarly though, low-level players generally make bases which are much easier to raid. So when you look at equal stats of raiders and basers:

New players: Make (often) easy to raid bases and are matched with their raiding ability
Experienced players: Make difficult to raid bases but (with my counter suggestion) have an increased ability to crack keypads

I think this would give a fair solution

Your solution could also be read as 

-new players have difficulty making bases and are often more vulnerable to longer-houred players so we should make it easier for longer-houred players to raid them

 

compare the amount of raids you see on prestiged players vice how often you see high level players trouncing newbies for fun

[ChrisRid 900]

3 minutes ago, mossly said:

Your solution could also be read as 

-new players have difficulty making bases and are often more vulnerable to longer-houred players so we should make it easier for longer-houred players to raid them

 

compare the amount of raids you see on prestiged players vice how often you see high level players trouncing newbies for fun

I think the greater point is that they are able to improve, and we have all started out making bases which weren't all that great. It's only through having been raided, then asking other players what they do and taking suggestions, and through trial and error that we can all improve, and they aren't limited to what level they are in their ability to make a good base either. Taking away one of their doors however could prove to make things even more difficult for them than it already is, given their base is likely not setup for a favourable firefight and that door could make all the difference to them. Whereas to an experienced player, one door doesn't make a great deal of difference, providing we pay attention lol.

[mossly 144]

2 minutes ago, ChrisRid said:

I think the greater point is that they are able to improve, and we have all started out making bases which weren't all that great. It's only through having been raided, then asking other players what they do and taking suggestions, and through trial and error that we can all improve, and they aren't limited to what level they are in their ability to make a good base either. Taking away one of their doors however could prove to make things even more difficult for them than it already is, given their base is likely not setup for a favourable firefight and that door could make all the difference to them. Whereas to an experienced player, one door doesn't make a great deal of difference, providing we pay attention lol.

One door gives more time for previous doors to close, adds at least ten seconds of vulnerable time, and (related to my spacing thing) increases the chance of getting stuck in a prop. 

 

I think an actionable compromise could be allowing 3 keypad doors and then a keypadded printer vault.

[ChrisRid 900]

11 minutes ago, mossly said:

One door gives more time for previous doors to close, adds at least ten seconds of vulnerable time, and (related to my spacing thing) increases the chance of getting stuck in a prop. 

 

I think an actionable compromise could be allowing 3 keypad doors and then a keypadded printer vault.

I'll stick to my -1 for getting rid of a fading door for all the reasons previously stated.

Just with regards to the suggestion of 3 doors and a keypadded printer vault, this would actually hurt the raider more than the baser. Imagine if you had 3 people basing together, you'd need to crack 6 keypads in total to access all of the printers (3 for the doors, plus three separate printer vaults). If you're going to suggest that the printer vault should only be one, it amounts to the same as the 4th fading door. Plus, often bases have a quick door (which actually helps the raider steal printers if they make it in) but you'd need to crack the keypad for every few printers you take out the vault, instead of just operating one quickdoor. One printer vault would also lead to confusion when it comes to who's printers are who's, I always keep mine separate to other peoples in case either of us mistake the others for our own and take the money.

[WohMi 184]

-1

This will hurt new players the most. The more doors they have, the more time they have to defend themselves. Experienced players will still be able to Dragonlore you from across their base in a nigh-invisible spot be it 3, 4, or 5 doors. I do understand that raiding can be pretty difficult, but I think that that's an acceptable amount of difficulty. Also, I'll admit my bias: I was pissed as hell when the amount of fading doors you could use in PD got reduced, and I DEFINITELY don't want that happening for all my current bases.

[Proggy 3,818]

Denied
Not enough community support to push this one through.