Crouch Jump Warn Appeal

[Jackal 709]

In-game name: Tali CPL yakal

SteamID (https://steamid.io/): STEAM_0:0:69077674

Staff members in-game name: Papamid, Towelie, Smity

Staff members SteamID (/id (name): STEAM_0:1:79410912,

Date & Time of incident: 5/6/2023 1AM

Timezone: EST

Warn Reason: Fail RP - Crouch Jump

What happened? (include any proof): https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/181z9GUwl6WIhN/xUdhiCM5d3q8?invite=cr-MSxoNmosMTI4MDExNzk0LA

I was reported for the clip above in which I was shown crouch jumping and strafing to get around a corner as quickly as possible. I clarified in the sit that this was not malicious and is a pretty natural movement on gmod and source games alike especially in terms of bhopping, surfing, etc. I tried to also clarify that what was shown is incredibly similar to strafing and crouching to go window to window in cons, crouch jumping over barriers, etc all of which have a commonality being non-malicious but opportunistic movement.

Why should your warn be removed?: In the very sit I was in the Admin reporting me, Papamid, had referenced the rule as once taking damage you are no longer allowed to crouch jump at all though Towelie, the Smod handling the sit, said that you could crouch jump in combat but only exclusive to getting over barriers. This then prompted the sit to conclude but maybe 10minutes later Smity had made the decision it was crouch jumping. Additionally, the only reference to this rule existing at least from what I was shown in the sit by both staff members was it, apparently, falling loosely under the FRP rule as well as a post from 3 or more years ago. Due to the ambiguity of the rule my warning should be removed and my suggestion heavily considered for acceptance so as to avoid further confusion and wrongful warnings.

Below is my suggestion in regard to the rule which has additional information and threads to reference the minimal existence of this “rule.”

EDIT: The only tangible thing on the forums pertaining to crouch-jumping is the thread below. (Which I hadn't realized is in the denied section anyway)

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Jackal

[Papamid 42]

https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/181z9GUwl6WIhN/d1337vNGWZ1W?invite=cr-MSxIdUwsMTI4MDExNzk0LA

[Towelieee 167]

I was one the one that had taken the sit.

 

During the sit, Jackal brought up that getting over obstruction and going around a corner are both maneuvering the map and it falls under the same category. I proceeded to tell him that crouch jumping is unrealistic, it breaks your hitbox, and you used it not as it was intended for. He asked where it was in the rules, I said it falls under FailRP.

 

He continued to disagree with me and Pigeon and said that it's intolerable that it isn't in the rules. However, I brought up the fact of precedent and enforcing it. I, myself, have been warned for crouch-jumping in war and I know the what to do and what not to do. This is all a precedent case and breaking your hitbox to get around cover is not something that is allowed within the server.

 

The only complication here is that the rule is indeed somewhat unwritten, but I wouldn't think that would matter as people are constantly reminded on the fact that crouch jumping (in certain ways) just isn't allowed in the server. This has been a rule for a while, I was just shocked how you haven't heard of this rule. I think Smity is correct with warranting the warn, however a change in the rules documents should go more in-depth when it comes to things like these.

 

To sum it up, the warn should stay, the rules should go into depth.

 

This is the corner that he jumped around. (No obstruction blocking someone from getting around the corner)

Edited May 6, 2023 by Towelieee

[Jackal 709]

1 hour ago, Towelieee said:

I was one the one that had taken the sit.

 

During the sit, Jackal brought up that getting over obstruction and going around a corner are both maneuvering the map and it falls under the same category. I proceeded to tell him that crouch jumping is unrealistic, it breaks your hitbox, and you used it not as it was intended for. He asked where it was in the rules, I said it falls under FailRP.

Yes and, unless staff protocol has changed, this is historically NOT how rules as specific as crouch-jumping, basecamping, fast fire exploiting, using snipers in peace time, etc are enforced or implemented. They don't just coincidentally fall under a blanket rule. They are clarified and made clear in the MOTD or, like mentioned in our staff sit, through an administration post. (Ideally not one from 3 years ago where half of it isn't relevant or has been since overruled. BUT that requires proactive and attentive staff/management) 

1 hour ago, Towelieee said:

He continued to disagree with me and Pigeon and said that it's intolerable that it isn't in the rules. 

Your paraphrasing me incorrectly I said that this isn't how rules like this are typically enforced and that it doesn't make sense for an obscure ambiguous rule to be substantial in determining if it is enforceable. You yourself cited a post in that sit from 3 years ago with people even at that time being confused on the rule and having different interpretations. (Which was like the whole point of what I was saying and indirectly gave me a source to reference)

 

1 hour ago, Towelieee said:

However, I brought up the fact of precedent and enforcing it. I, myself, have been warned for crouch-jumping in war and I know the what to do and what not to do. This is all a precedent case and breaking your hitbox to get around cover is not something that is allowed within the server.

This, unless staff protocol has changed, is also false. Precedent isn't set in sits because if it were, a T.Mod could set precedent or really anyone with any staff rank could. There is a reason why rule implementations, precedent, etc go through the proper channels in administration/management, to then be made official through forums, and then they are enforced. (You also mention in your post that "I, myself, have been warned for crouch-jumping in war and I know the what to do and what not to do" which implies that I have to ACCIDENTALLY break the rule to even know that it exists to the extent that it, apparently, does which is not healthy between staff and players. Additionally, I hadn't been warn for this prior verbal or officially so genuinely couldn't have known unless I remembered that obscure 3 year old thread )

 

1 hour ago, Towelieee said:

The only complication here is that the rule is indeed somewhat unwritten, but I wouldn't think that would matter as people are constantly reminded on the fact that crouch jumping (in certain ways) just isn't allowed in the server. 

You say "certain ways" but based off of your replies and in the sit there is only one "way" (unless you opt to clarify) which is to get over obstacles which leaves anything and everything else open ended. Additionally, I said at like the start of the sit that I knew crouch-jumping in combat wasn't allowed, as in crouch-jumping in the open, but again wanted clarification as to what extent given that you gave one definition of the rule and the Admin, your superior, gave another.

 

1 hour ago, Towelieee said:

This has been a rule for a while, I was just shocked how you haven't heard of this rule. 

You, again, are misremembering or intentionally misrepresenting what was said in the sit. I never contested whether or not the rule existed just to what extent it covered movement and maneuverability in combat. All of the stuff referenced in the sit to back the warn initially fell flat given that even back then it was ambiguous.

1 hour ago, Towelieee said:

I think Smity is correct with warranting the warn, however a change in the rules documents should go more in-depth when it comes to things like these.

So you can concede and agree with me, as the person initially handling the sit, that the rule needs to be more in-depth and because of this exact situation it should and would be addressed. But you can't be rational and reasonable enough to recognize that in this case, and likely others, people were warned for this exact thing with no ability to know that it actually is against the rules or to what extent. No offense but that seems like the inverse of staff operations and a lack of accountability. (This just makes the dynamic between player and staff even more unhealthy and honestly undesireable)


EDIT: Funnily enough you, coincidentally, forgot to mention that that corner in your screenshot that I strafed around and behind wouldn't have been possible without crouch jumping. (Taking it as wide and as fast as I did would be nowhere near as fluid or possible without it. This is something you can literally reference to in the medal clip used to report me.)

Edited May 6, 2023 by Jackal

[Smity_ 257]

I was the person that made the call on this, The reason of why crouch jumping is only allowed for jumping over objects is because of this exact reason. Sure was the intent malicious, no. But did he break his hit box to get an advantage and get to speed around that corner, Yes. Even though the point of what you did in the clip wasn’t intended to break your hit box but that’s what happened. 

 

I agree that it needs more clarification, I’ve already touched on that with other people. Anyways technically there is not a direct rule regarding crouch jumping. But it is something that has been known for a very long time to be FailRP. Which what you did was very FailRP. 

 

I would like to also mention a post from 2 years ago. yes i was still staff then, Like I said the unwritten rule needs clarification. Even though it was written before but got removed at some point. A lot of things fall under failrp. That wouldn’t be written. But anyways "Intentional Crouch-Jump Spam and Crouch Spam= FailRP | Crouch-Jumping during war or a RP scenario is FailRP unless it is to get over an obstacle. Recording needed before warn" and in this instance of what you did it wasn’t over or onto an object. 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Smity_

[Jackal 709]

15 minutes ago, Smity_ said:

I was the person that made the call on this, The reason of why crouch jumping is only allowed for jumping over objects is because of this exact reason.  

This I referenced in both the suggestion and warn appeal. Jim trash's post is from 3 years ago and is in the DENIED section of administration. It's mut anyway. If you're adamant about enforcing those rules make an official post instead of expecting players to forage for it. (Crouch-jumping based off of what is on forums and the fact it is unwritten is just like basecamping atm. A gentleman's agreement. Though like I mentioned in my suggestion I do think there should be some rule on it. Just not an unwritten one.)

15 minutes ago, Smity_ said:

Sure was the intent malicious, no. But did he break his hit box to get an advantage and get to speed around that corner, Yes. Even though the point of what you did in the clip wasn’t intended to break your hit box but that’s what happened. 

Firstly, you recognize there wasn't intent to break my hitbox, bear in mind this is my first offense for this and again this is an unwritten rule, and historically we typically have different proceedings for accidental transgressions or rule breaks. Especially considering this is again an UNWRITTEN rule.

15 minutes ago, Smity_ said:

I agree that it needs more clarification, I’ve already touched on that with other people. Anyways technically there is not a direct rule regarding crouch jumping. But it is something that has been known for a very long time to be FailRP. Which what you did was very FailRP. 

So again just like Towelie you can recognize that it needs more clarification but can't correlate how the lack of explanation could mean wrongful warnings? Thank you though for conceding that there is no direct rule for the rule that was enforced. 

15 minutes ago, Smity_ said:

I would like to also mention a post from 2 years ago. yes i was still staff then, Like I said the unwritten rule needs clarification. 

You said that previously and yet we are more intent on keeping a warning, as though the rule genuinely exists, despite recognizing it needing clarification and being unwritten. So how is this stance in any way rational? (keeping the warning)

15 minutes ago, Smity_ said:

A lot of things fall under failrp. That wouldn’t be written. 

I listed off numerous examples that while some may see as common sense aren't and that is why they get clarified in the rules. Unwritten rules restricting a super common movement, that is muscle memory for a lot of players, while you think might fall under FailRP do need clarification and this is what you've already admitted to.

 

15 minutes ago, Smity_ said:

"Intentional Crouch-Jump Spam and Crouch Spam= FailRP | Crouch-Jumping during war or a RP scenario is FailRP unless it is to get over an obstacle. Recording needed before warn" and in this instance of what you did it wasn’t over or onto an object. 

 

You quoted the rule I already referenced and mentioned clearly that that entire thread by Jim Trash is in the DENIED section. im hurt you didn't read my appeal and suggestion

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Jackal

[Smity_ 257]

41 minutes ago, Jackal said:

You quoted the rule I already referenced and mentioned clearly that that entire thread by Jim Trash is in the DENIED section. im hurt you didn't read my appeal and suggestion

I quoted the rule, that was used in an appeal while I was staff. Which has been in affect for awhile. If you’re saying Jim Trash was staff in August of 21’ during that appeal then idk. But that’s how crouch jumping warns have been enforced for the longest time. Idk when it was removed from writing but it got removed at some point. 

[Jackal 709]

47 minutes ago, Smity_ said:

I quoted the rule, that was used in an appeal while I was staff. Which has been in affect for awhile. If you’re saying Jim Trash was staff in August of 21’ during that appeal then idk. But that’s how crouch jumping warns have been enforced for the longest time. Idk when it was removed from writing but it got removed at some point. 

I know crouch jumping is abusable since I have been a part of this community for a long time, however, I didn't use it with that intention and if you wanted to punish me for doing so, you would need to have it written. It isn't my fault it was removed, it's your fault for not updating it. I shouldn't receive a special punishment because of my status as a veteran in the same way I shouldn't receive a special exemption for being one.

[Smity_ 257]

7 minutes ago, Jackal said:

you would need to have it written

It doesn’t have to be written by any means. Unless it explicitly says you can crouch jump in RP. If anything it says in administration that you can’t jump at all in combat.

[Nutter 15,155]

16 hours ago, Smity_ said:

It doesn’t have to be written by any means. Unless it explicitly says you can crouch jump in RP. If anything it says in administration that you can’t jump at all in combat.

Imagine blocking off an available gameplay mechanic and warning people for it  

 

EDIT:

It took me roughly 2 minutes to write experimental code to keep the player's hitbox hull in its correct position when they crouch jump, I will try out this code over the next week so crouch-jumping is a non-issue and players don't get banned for playing on their instinct. I think almost ALL of us have an impulse to jump and tap CTRL

[Fonza 249]

Accepted

Due to this warn providing context leading to a fix, this appeal will be accepted.

HOWEVER

For anyone that has a Crouch-Jump warn before this appeal was posted, it will still abide by previous rules regarding Crouch-Jumping.