jas0n 84 Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 (edited) Class Rework We have been running the same classes for too long. It's time to bring in a fresh breath into war. These changes will add something to almost every class. The biggest change you will see is nades. Its odd that we don't have more classes with grenades. Having a plethora of grenades to choose from will allow for more strategic play. Reasoning for speed boost, Our current map is really small but in the future is will be encourage flank play. Snipers should be constantly on the move being unpredictable and more cqc style classes give an edge for advancing more complex positions Classes that are tanky will encourage people to hold point. The speed penalty wont be a huge factor when your sitting on point holding an angle and the armor allows you to take more of a punishment before being forced to rotate or killed. Army/Taliban Support Add Flash. Provides more utility Add Smoke. Provides more utility Soldier - Add Flash. Provides more utility Demolions/LMG Remove Riot shield - Adds to the support role Marksman Add Smoke. Provides utility Sniper/SharpShooter Add smoke. Provides utility Infiltrator/Insurgent Add Flash. Provides utility Officer Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Breacher/MachineGunner Add 3 frags. Provides utility Scout/Arsonist Add smoke. Provides utility Add flash. Provides utility Green Beret Rifleman Add Flash. Provides more utility Add Smoke. Provides more utility Field medic Add Frag. Provides more utility Add riot shield Demolitions Add 3 Frags. Provides util Scout Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Officer Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Add Frag. Provides utility Commando Add Smoke. Provides utility Add Flash. Provides utility Rangers Rifleman Add Flash. Provides more utility Add Smoke. Provides more utility Field medic Add Frag. Provides more utility Add riot shield. Provides more utility Engineer Add 3 frags. Provides Utility Marksman Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Officer Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Add Frag. Provides utility Infringer Add Smoke. Provides utility Add Flash. Provides utility Combat medic Add SR338. Sniper faction, tier 3 should have sniper Delta Force Rifleman Add Flash Bang. Provides more utility Add Smoke. Provides more utility Doctor Add Frag. Provides more utility Add riot shield. Provides more utility Sniper Add smoke. Provides Utility Infiltrator Add Ak-103. Going undercover for raids, should have access to a taliban gun Combatant Add 1 Frag 055th Insurgent Add Flash Bang. Provides more utility Add Smoke. Provides more utility Healer Add Frag. Provides more utility Add riot shield Pointguard Add molotov. Provide util Scout Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Officer Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Add Frag. Provides utility Brute Add Smoke. Provides utility Add Flash. Provides utility Brigiadar Add m9k_m79gl Explosive faction Tier 3 should have access to one TSFU Assault Add Flash. Provides more utility Add Smoke. Provides more utility Watchman Add Frag. Provides more utility Add riot shield. Provides more utility Combatant Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Officer Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Add Frag. Provides utility ISI Agent Add Flash. Provides more utility Add Smoke. Provides more utility Field medic Add Frag. Provides more utility Add riot shield Assassin Add DF honey badger. Going undercover for raids, should have access to a US gun Sentinel Add Smoke. Provides utility Add Flash. Provides utility Commanders All commanders both tali and us. Add smoke Add flash Allow DF and ISI to join Infil raids ( making it 3 people per raid!) I realizing now that im a dumbass. Title should say era instead of area. Edited May 27, 2023 by jas0n 1 1 1 7 Link to comment
Simon G 64 Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 (edited) THE UTILITY ERA! Edited May 24, 2023 by Simon G Link to comment
PraetorDon 485 Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 (edited) I'm fine with flashes, smokes, and frags, these are tools. Tools can show skill expression. I have a bit more hesitation on static buffs. I am fine with some speed adjustments, but at a lower rate than what you suggested, maybe half. Balance around current speed buffs to donors. Despite what the store says, I believe in the past the speed buffs to donors were lowered. I don't like additional classes getting shields/armor/health, leave those for donors (I would rather have no health boosted classes period, but it is what it is.) Edited May 24, 2023 by PraetorDon 1 Link to comment
jas0n 84 Posted May 24, 2023 Topic Author Share Posted May 24, 2023 4 hours ago, PraetorDon said: I'm fine with flashes, smokes, and frags, these are tools. Tools can show skill expression. I have a bit more hesitation on static buffs. I am fine with some speed adjustments, but at a lower rate than what you suggested, maybe half. Balance around current speed buffs to donors. Despite what the store says, I believe in the past the speed buffs to donors were lowered. I don't like additional classes getting shields/armor/health, leave those for donors (I would rather have no health boosted classes period, but it is what it is.) The speed boost should be balanced around donor classes i was unaware of this nerf. But for the classes gaining additional health is not a huge difference in CQC pvp. It will only allow you to take one maybe 2 extra shots before your killed. It gives a skilled player an opportunity to react to be shot in the back or that extra shot might give them the courage to make a more risky play. But the biggest reason it should be added is being able to tank a sniper shot. This will be an indirect nerf to our heavy sniper meta without nerfing snipers into the ground. This will give players who don't have access to a sniper or who cant use a sniper skillfully will give them a fighting chance against snipers. 2 Link to comment
PraetorDon 485 Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, jas0n said: But for the classes gaining additional health is not a huge difference in CQC pvp. It will only allow you to take one maybe 2 extra shots before your killed. It gives a skilled player an opportunity to react to be shot in the back or that extra shot might give them the courage to make a more risky play. Agreed, to some extent. TTK is so low that honestly it's unlikely to make much difference if you get jumped. 1 hour ago, jas0n said: But the biggest reason it should be added is being able to tank a sniper shot. This will be an indirect nerf to our heavy sniper meta without nerfing snipers into the ground. This will give players who don't have access to a sniper or who cant use a sniper skillfully will give them a fighting chance against snipers. What would actually help them fight back is giving them a sniper. All that will happen is they'll either a)back up and go to obj with little health remaining or b)take another shot a few seconds later and die anyway. The people that it will benefit the most are veterans who have a donor sniper. Indirectly, implementing the hp changes would actually be a buff to the donor mosin/orsis, as it will now take two body shots for some of the hp buffed classes with the 125 damage snipers. Edited May 24, 2023 by PraetorDon Link to comment
BenZ 22 Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 Taliban/Army Personally I don't like the support class meta. the fact it has speed + shield + smoke + flash. Donator weapons would be the meta for the class. i dont really like that idea. adding a smoke is good. Half the server already has flashes and its pretty much a minge tool. I don't like it, it has its uses of course. Rangers I don't like the sniper on a combat medic class. Doesn't make much sense to add that. using sniper faction as a reason isn't really realistic at all.TSFU No one was talked to in regard for this suggestion. Our faction has really been pushing for changes on out classes but nothing utility based... also every faction on this list has been given a weapon except for TSFU. We have been in constant talks within the community to add a sniper. Many people are aware of this suggestion we have made. DF I really think if delta force wants to increase RP potential for infli raids. contact a GM to give you the weapon you desire for that operation. adding an Ak103 of all the weapons seems like its a reach to get another overpowered weapon to DF.-1 until this is revised and attempts to balance it are made 1 Link to comment
SailorDef 26 Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 20 hours ago, jas0n said: TSFU Assault Add Flash. Provides more utility Add Smoke. Provides more utility Watchman Add Frag. Provides more utility Add 10% speed boost. Allow players to make revives quicker and rush complex situations. Add riot shield. Provides more utility Bomber Add 10% speed boost. More feed potential Combatant Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Add 5% speed boost. Provides utility Militant Add 10% speed boost. Allows for hit and run style of gameplay Officer Add Flash. Provides utility Add Smoke. Provides utility Add Frag. Provides utility Add 25 shield. tank Frontier add 25 shield. Tank Add 5% boost. Provides utility Infiltrator Add 10% speed boost. Provides utility Add 25 shield. Tank Add riot shield. Provides more utility -1 Not one member of TSFU was contacted for any of these changes. I love the speed boost idea and shield but none of Utility changes are necessary. All we want is a sniper but that will never happen which is unfortunate. Cheese has been talking about weapon changes with a few people for TSFU please shoot him a message because some of these changes are great. Link to comment
jas0n 84 Posted May 25, 2023 Topic Author Share Posted May 25, 2023 5 hours ago, BenZ said: Taliban/Army Personally I don't like the support class meta. the fact it has speed + shield + smoke + flash. Donator weapons would be the meta for the class. i dont really like that idea. adding a smoke is good. Half the server already has flashes and its pretty much a minge tool. I don't like it, it has its uses of course. Rangers I don't like the sniper on a combat medic class. Doesn't make much sense to add that. using sniper faction as a reason isn't really realistic at all.TSFU No one was talked to in regard for this suggestion. Our faction has really been pushing for changes on out classes but nothing utility based... also every faction on this list has been given a weapon except for TSFU. We have been in constant talks within the community to add a sniper. Many people are aware of this suggestion we have made. DF I really think if delta force wants to increase RP potential for infli raids. contact a GM to give you the weapon you desire for that operation. adding an Ak103 of all the weapons seems like its a reach to get another overpowered weapon to DF.-1 until this is revised and attempts to balance it are made First off the class is called support and it should be a supporting role. You have access to no primary weapon. Players who don't have access to donor weapons tend to not play this class as they do want to shoot things but if they had the ability to more directly influence battle by throwing smokes and flashes will allow them to feel more useful then just standing in a corner with a med kit out. Also Donor weapons shouldn't be a consecration while talking about overall balance changes. Lots of players have no access to donor weapons and they should also have the ability to have a fun experience on the server. Not everyone is going to spend money and these people should also be taken in consecration. Donor weapons are another post entirely. Donor weapons are pay to win and they always will be. Rangers are a sniping faction, there t3 that you pay money for should have access to there own sniper. DF gets Tier Gas on there t3. GB gets a Flash on there t3. I Suggested that 055th gets there GL on there t3 yet you don't complain about that. I have seen and heard absolutely zero attempts from tsfu to push any faction changes. Instead of crying in the forum post that your not getting listened to you should instead take the opportunity to add onto the post about what faction changes you want. What Sniper would you like to see, On what class. I am more than happy to try to help provide you a better experience for TSFU if you guys spoke up. For your concerns about DF, ISI Gets access to our honey badger which is a very good gun better than the 103. Saying its a reach is extremely disrespectful as i provided ISI an equivalent upgrade and you ignore that fact. And its arguable that the Explosive ISI gets is extremely better then a frag grenade but there is no complaints from you. I must ask why are you so biased about US changes while Tali gets the same treatment. You raise no concern over it. 5 hours ago, SailorDef said: -1 Not one member of TSFU was contacted for any of these changes. I love the speed boost idea and shield but none of Utility changes are necessary. All we want is a sniper but that will never happen which is unfortunate. Cheese has been talking about weapon changes with a few people for TSFU please shoot him a message because some of these changes are great. Im not surprised you have a similar response to benz. I will again ask what weapon would you like to see and to what class and ill add it to the suggestion. But the utility changes will make war feel different. War overhaul has felt the same over the years. Adding all this utility will allow players to get creative with strategies that we would have never seen before. If you don't want to use the Utility that's your chose but doesn't it make sense for soldiers to have grenades. The only down side to adding all the grenades is some minging. Your willing to give up all this potential gameplay over the fact that someone might bother you for 5 minutes. We have officers for a reason. Punish these players, take away whitelists, Lock them in Jail. There are thousand ways to deal with a minge 8 hours ago, PraetorDon said: Agreed, to some extent. TTK is so low that honestly it's unlikely to make much difference if you get jumped. What would actually help them fight back is giving them a sniper. All that will happen is they'll either a)back up and go to obj with little health remaining or b)take another shot a few seconds later and die anyway. The people that it will benefit the most are veterans who have a donor sniper. Indirectly, implementing the hp changes would actually be a buff to the donor mosin/orsis, as it will now take two body shots for some of the hp buffed classes with the 125 damage snipers. A) yeah they get into obj and get a medic to heal you or you chad out and kill a few guys. On larger maps when it takes longer to get to objs this will give you the chance to make an impact that could lead you to winning the war. B) Those seconds are crucial in pvp. You wont just die anyway if you have a small ounce of skill within certain ranges. Even on long ranges you can break line of sight and get away. Veterans who pay to win will always well win. Look at the pp bison rn. Its such a crutch anyone can go crazy with that gun. But the extra health Buffing the donor mosion/orsis is not a buff? I dont understand your point because it takes two shots to be killed by the mosin/orsis which nerfs them. 1 Link to comment
PraetorDon 485 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) On 5/25/2023 at 12:27 AM, jas0n said: But the extra health buffing donor mosion/orsis is not a buff? I dont understand your point because it takes two shots to be killed by the mosin/orsis which nerfs them. Currently, mosin/orsis does 80 damage body shots. I have not kept track of every change made to guns by the executive team in the last two years, this is my observation from using the guns. 2x shots to the body to kill for 160. By adding the health, it will now take 2 shots to the body for the normal snipers as well. The extra damage doesn't matter, it'll still require 2 shots. This indirectly buffs the donor snipers as it's now the same number of shots to kill, and I can use them on these hp boosted classes. When balancing things, you have to look at all the variables and how they interact, not just one. One extra shot in cqc doesn't matter as much because of the ttk (time to kill) of the relevant guns being so low. One extra shot with single fire snipers definitely matters as I have time to reposition before the next shot is fired. With 4000 hours of playtime, as well as being old (more experience) my gamesense is going to be better than a new player. This goes for almost everyone with over 1000 hours (a good chunk of the server). Circling back to my point, the hp boosting helps veterans more than new players, which I believe is the opposite of what these changes are targeting. All of the above is wrong and should be ignored Edited May 28, 2023 by PraetorDon Link to comment
Toyto 79 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, PraetorDon said: Currently, mosin/orsis does 80 damage body shots. I have not kept track of every change made to guns by the executive team in the last two years, this is my observation from using the guns. 2x shots to the body to kill for 160. Both donor snipers have a base damage of 100 which allows them to 1 shot to the body. Other snipers are better not only because of the damage (allowing them to kill injured players with arm and leg shots) but also because they have better stats and larger mags; changing the number of shots required to kill wouldn't change the fact that whitelist snipers are generally better. I don't necessarily disagree with your point about health in general but I thought this should be clarified. Edited May 25, 2023 by Toyto Link to comment
PraetorDon 485 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Toyto said: Both donor snipers have a base damage of 100 which allows them to 1 shot to the body. Other snipers are better not only because of the damage (allowing them to kill injured players with arm and leg shots) but also because they have better stats and larger mags; changing the number of shots required to kill wouldn't change the fact that whitelist snipers are generally better. I don't necessarily disagree with your point about health in general but I thought this should be clarified. This makes logical sense, and I will need to test. Somewhere is the back of my head sits a conversation about the donor guns being shadow nerfed. Consider the math retracted. I must be going nuts. It's probably just armshots Edited May 25, 2023 by PraetorDon Link to comment
Horse 350 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) (Shield and Speed Boost and weapon additions/Increases) : -1 reasoning - You have a good pov on this with the increase of incentive to join SOC and giving more players a reason to join those factions. However, not only does this further the negative impact on new players and making that learning curve even greater than it already is but the general idea is for SOC to be greater skill wise than other players and that skill and player to player interaction is what is supposed to create an incentive to join the faction shield implementations and speed boosts listed are totally going to break down newer players more and push them away IF ANYTHING base faction should have a greater shield percentage than SOC. Would much rather see ppl gain speed and shield boosts from crafting or general player interaction p.s - even if you were to say ‘speed buffs or hp buffs are mostly or aimed towards donor classes’ it doesn’t matter because the people getting those classes are still of tier 1 like fuckin skill and they most definitely will be able to use that class better than a base faction donor or machine gunner. p.p.s - headglitching with a one shot sniper + 10% speed boost for strafing on those newbies?!?! No shottt (Flashes and Smokes) +1, great equipment that is greatly underused. Would be sick to see breaching techniques set up with these. (Explosives) -1, Currently I think the use of explosives if great across the board no reason to add additional explosives basically just a new player killer aswell and take almost no skill to use Edited May 27, 2023 by Horseyyy Link to comment
Jackal 709 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) On 5/23/2023 at 9:27 PM, jas0n said: Class Rework The biggest change you will see is nades. Its odd that we don't have more classes with grenades. Having a plethora of grenades to choose from will allow for more strategic play. Honestly, nades being distributed to classes isn't horrible and should happen at some point or another at least in reference to flashes and smokes. Frags probably shouldn't be added to a total of 23 classes as the suggestion suggests let alone giving classes that can disguise explosives either. (this includes IED detonator) On 5/23/2023 at 9:27 PM, jas0n said: Class Rework Reasoning for speed boost, Our current map is really small but in the future is will be encourage flank play. Snipers should be constantly on the move being unpredictable and more cqc style classes give an edge for advancing more complex positions I don't think anyone can say definitively if increasing movement speed on non-donator classes will encourage flank play, given that a drastic change like this was never done, but I will say that even currently on the small map you see flanks occurring often and this is without movement speed. For example, if we are to have an Playground or Courtyard war you are certainly going to see either US or AFG utilizing cons to flank or cut people off. Granted, it is harder to do atm given the map size but even outside of Foxtrot flanking occurred often. Aside from that we'd also probably see hitregistration issues as well which is annoying as it is and would be a headache post a change like this. Also, how is movement speed even added utility if it is a stat boost to you as an individual. It doesn't provide anything for anyone around you like a flash or smoke can. On 5/23/2023 at 9:27 PM, jas0n said: Class Rework Classes that are tanky will encourage people to hold point. The speed penalty wont be a huge factor when your sitting on point holding an angle and the armor allows you to take more of a punishment before being forced to rotate or killed. I would agree that a movementspeed debuff combined with extra tankieness could push people towards holding point but that is assuming they can get there half the time. In the past we have had Nailgunner/RPG and Jug/Bulldozer as classes with movement speed reductions but extra hp. More often than not, and that is being generous, they were just easy targets for snipers to pickoff given they have that lack of movement to get out of their LOS. I imagine it is/would be even worse now given how overtuned many faction weapons are. Also, most of the classes with armor increases don't even have movement speed reductions as mentioned at the start of your thread so atm they just get a flat armor increase with no downside anyway. TL;DR Flashes and Smokes are a +1 everything else a definite -1 Edited May 25, 2023 by Jackal 1 2 Link to comment
jas0n 84 Posted May 27, 2023 Topic Author Share Posted May 27, 2023 On 5/25/2023 at 5:35 PM, Jackal said: Honestly, nades being distributed to classes isn't horrible and should happen at some point or another at least in reference to flashes and smokes. Frags probably shouldn't be added to a total of 23 classes as the suggestion suggests let alone giving classes that can disguise explosives either. (this includes IED detonator) I don't think anyone can say definitively if increasing movement speed on non-donator classes will encourage flank play, given that a drastic change like this was never done, but I will say that even currently on the small map you see flanks occurring often and this is without movement speed. For example, if we are to have an Playground or Courtyard war you are certainly going to see either US or AFG utilizing cons to flank or cut people off. Granted, it is harder to do atm given the map size but even outside of Foxtrot flanking occurred often. Aside from that we'd also probably see hitregistration issues as well which is annoying as it is and would be a headache post a change like this. Also, how is movement speed even added utility if it is a stat boost to you as an individual. It doesn't provide anything for anyone around you like a flash or smoke can. I would agree that a movementspeed debuff combined with extra tankieness could push people towards holding point but that is assuming they can get there half the time. In the past we have had Nailgunner/RPG and Jug/Bulldozer as classes with movement speed reductions but extra hp. More often than not, and that is being generous, they were just easy targets for snipers to pickoff given they have that lack of movement to get out of their LOS. I imagine it is/would be even worse now given how overtuned many faction weapons are. Also, most of the classes with armor increases don't even have movement speed reductions as mentioned at the start of your thread so atm they just get a flat armor increase with no downside anyway. TL;DR Flashes and Smokes are a +1 everything else a definite -1 First off the Speed boost and Armor was poorly thought out in this suggestion. Our map currently is the smallest its ever been so flanking is almost something required to get on point but on larger maps where flanking could take several minutes. Thats where the idea of the speed boost came from. But i removed all speed and armor from this suggestion maybe its a topic brought up in the future Secondly i took the nades off some classes like ISI\DF infil classes and non donor base factions. DF/Isi Infil raids should be more then just getting feeds and a way to gather intel. Base Faction tend to be untrustworthy with explosives so limiting them to the donor class should lead to less issues. There are those wars where it feel impossible to clear a point. I think having these nades will help break heavily forfeited positions and power positions. It is not impossible to dodge a frag and will likely force you to reposition. Frags are not instant wins and its naïve to believe them as such Link to comment
Jackal 709 Posted May 27, 2023 Share Posted May 27, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, jas0n said: Our map currently is the smallest its ever been so flanking is almost something required to get on point but on larger maps where flanking could take several minutes. Thats where the idea of the speed boost came from. Sure flanking is an inconvenience to your uptime on point but a net positive for the rest of your team/country regardless of time spent. (Not every role/position is favorable) Also, I can't honestly imagine flanks for people taking 3+minutes to pull off especially with vehicles now so even on a larger map than it is now I just don't see how movement speed helps other than trying to make something intentionally inconvenient convenient. 2 hours ago, jas0n said: Base Faction tend to be untrustworthy with explosives so limiting them to the donor class should lead to less issues. The problem with the post initially in that regard wasn't so much base factions getting them just that a total of 23 classes, not including existing donors, would end up having frags one way or another. It's the amount not who is getting them. 2 hours ago, jas0n said: There are those wars where it feel impossible to clear a point. I think having these nades will help break heavily forfeited positions and power positions. It is not impossible to dodge a frag and will likely force you to reposition. Frags are not instant wins and its naïve to believe them as such No matter which side you play you will be on the losing side at some point and feel like you can't get to or clear point it happens. Now if you are saying that this is because of some gameplay issue like map design then go through the proper channels for that as well as tackling the issue directly as opposed to flatly saying "distribute nades" to indirectly solve the issue. (But possibly create problems in the future) As for the last sentiment I don't think anyone, or at the very least myself, mentioned frags as being uber powerful or "instant wins" just that it definitely wouldn't be in everyone's best interest for balance with so many in circulation given their kill potential. Don't get me wrong I myself personally wouldn't be opposed to changes that shake up combat and war though myself personally would want to see weapon changes given how bad it has gotten as opposed to what you are suggesting/initially suggested. (Or something completely new just has to be thought out) Edited May 27, 2023 by Jackal Link to comment
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