Fix or get rid of jailing

[mossly 144]

Jailing serves the wronged party no purpose and does not serve as a deterrent. Though people are supposed to read through rules while in jail, no one does this; most of the time, jail simply means having 15 people around your cell hanging out and talking to you.

We should either A. improve it or B. stop

A.

-lock players in the rules screen

-mute, freeze and gag the player while jailed

-jail in nonpublic areas in combination with the first

-increase lower-end jail time

-pair it with a demote or something

 

B.

-Kick the player instead

-Slay the player instead

-Just use warnings, which are better documentation of a player's recent behavior anyways and serve as more of a deterrent due to their ability to increase ban time

-Force the player to compensate the victim for time and items lost (not good, gives advantage to rich players and is subjective).

These would all serve as better rulebreak deterrents than "i might get stuck in an attention-attracting box for 3 minutes" and would discourage repeat offenses.

 

There are a few more cool options that I found recently when banned and forced to play elsewhere that could be useful if implementable within our own admin system:

-making a player's bullets not do damage for a period of time

-making a player unable to spawn props for a short amount of time

The first one would be great for MRDMers because they literally wouldn't be able to RDM. On top of that, even for one-offs it's a horrible disability; if you knew you were at risk of being unable to defend yourself for 5 minutes if you RDMed, RDM would become less of a palatable idea. I don't think those are current options for our system, but perhaps similar things could be implemented that serve a purpose beyond a time-out.

[Jaz- 338]

-1 

Jailing someone doesn’t only have the purpose of making people read the rules. Instead, it’s supposed to be a punishment that stops players from playing the game for a short period of time. I’m not exactly against buffing the jail, but I am strongly against removing the command all together.

[mossly 144]

Just now, Jaz- said:

-1 

Jailing someone doesn’t only have the purpose of making people read the rules. Instead, it’s supposed to be a punishment that stops players from playing the game for a short period of time. I’m not exactly against buffing the jail, but I am strongly against removing the command all together.

Not removing it, but removing it as a main-line punishment. It needs to either be improved or largely unused. It really doesn't stop then from playing, as everyone gathers around jail cells and fucks around with the imprisoned; gathering and fucking around with others is pretty much what everyone aside from printer rats does anyway

[ChrisRid 900]

Neutral

1 hour ago, EducationalSkeleton said:

-Just use warnings, which are better documentation of a player's recent behavior anyways and serve as more of a deterrent due to their ability to increase ban time

I do agree with this actually, warns stay on record for a couple of weeks and if a player repeatedly breaks rules, they will eventually get banned for exceeding the warn limit. This has the added benefit of keeping track of repeated rule-breakers when different staff members are online and perhaps don't know about previous reports that have taken place.

However, there are some good reasons to jail someone instead. For example, I have taken reports where a player is just a little worked up about something, and taking 5 mins to chill (being jailed) does a better job at preventing revenge on the reporter then a warn would. For a good player who generally follows the rules, being jailed by spawn is a bit embarrassing and similarly does a better job at preventing further issues. Or for the more professional minges, if there's someone that's genuinely and very obviously attempting to mass RDM but have only killed 2 people so far, a 12 minute jail isn't generally something they want to wait out so they tend to LTAP after a minute or two in the clink, which allows us to go ahead and ban them for RDM & LTAP before they even got their 3rd kill in 

So while I agree that warns do a great job at keeping track of behaviour, jailing does have it's place.
I would however see a good argument for warns to always be given alongside jailing. As it stands, this is possible when someone breaks two different rules.

Edited December 4, 2022 by ChrisRid

[mossly 144]

2 minutes ago, ChrisRid said:

Neutral

I do agree with this actually, warns stay on record for a couple of weeks and if a player repeatedly breaks rules, they will eventually get banned for exceeding the warn limit. This has the added benefit of keeping track of repeated rule-breakers when different staff members are online and perhaps don't know about previous reports that have taken place.

However, there are some good reasons to jail someone instead. For example, I have taken reports where a player is just a little worked up about something, and taking 5 mins to chill (being jailed) does a better job at preventing revenge on the reporter then a warn would. For a good player who generally follows the rules, being jailed by spawn is a bit embarrassing and similarly does a better job at preventing further issues. Or for the more professional minges, if there's someone that's genuinely and very obviously attempting to mass RDM but have only killed 2 people so far, a 12 minute jail isn't generally something they want to wait out so they tend to LTAP after a minute or two in the clink, which allows us to go ahead and ban them for RDM & LTAP before they even got their 3rd kill in 

So while I agree that warns do a great job at keeping track of behaviour, jailing does have it's place.
I would however see a good argument for warns to always be given alongside jailing. As it stands, this is possible when someone breaks two different rules.

I agree. My new formal suggestion is make a warn always included with jailing. That basically solves all of the listed things.

[Wendoly 220]

1 hour ago, EducationalSkeleton said:

mute, freeze and gag the player while jailed

The mute command is only used when someone is spamming the chat in any way, I don't see the use of muting someone instead of jailing them as a punishment for something that had nothing to do with chat spam, specially for those who don't own a mic. Gagging the players is only used when they are mic spamming, again I can't see how this would help as a lesson to learn when they got punished for other reason than mic spamming.

1 hour ago, EducationalSkeleton said:

-jail in nonpublic areas in combination with the first

This is entirely up to the staff member, me personally I like to jail players close to the spawn area but not in a populated spot. Some staff members jail players in certain spots because the punished player asked for it, some other times staff jail players in common areas as a "double punishment". Although sometimes I see that jailing a player in a populated area cause more problems.

1 hour ago, EducationalSkeleton said:

Kick the player instead

If a player has a base and goods inside that base (Printers/drugs etc.) and for some reason gets in trouble, kicking the player will discourage the player to come back after the loss, so I feel like this punishment replacement is awful.

1 hour ago, EducationalSkeleton said:

Slay the player instead

Not enough punishment in some cases, they would just respawn and keep doing what they were doing.

1 hour ago, EducationalSkeleton said:

Just use warnings, which are better documentation of a player's recent behavior anyways and serve as more of a deterrent due to their ability to increase ban time

We use warnings already, and we are instructed to warn players in certain scenarios.

1 hour ago, EducationalSkeleton said:

Force the player to compensate the victim for time and items lost (not good, gives advantage to rich players and is subjective)

If a player repeatedly breaks a certain rule they get a different punishment than just paying back every time (Generally the victim is the one asking for the compensation we don't force players to pay back or compensate) so this is not unfair in any way shape or form, this is already used and efficient in many cases.

1 hour ago, EducationalSkeleton said:

-making a player's bullets not do damage for a period of time

-making a player unable to spawn props for a short amount of time

These 2 suggestions are actually great, for the rest of the post I strongly disagree with most of the options listed since they wouldn't serve the purpose of a punishment or the suggestions are already being used as ways of punishment.

I think that adding a pop-up with the rules for whenever someone gets jailed would be an amazing addition. For the rest of this post my opinion is: -1

[Shizzle 215]

Neutral I’m ok with muting them while in jail so they can’t socialize.

[mossly 144]

11 minutes ago, Shizzle said:

Neutral I’m ok with muting them while in jail so they can’t socialize.

this was the intent, i know for a fact when i am in jail i just converse with people and test out in what ways they can kill me or vice versa (allegedly)

[StraightWhiteChristianMale 563]

-1 coming from someone who has been jailed more times than i can remember, I think it is perfectly fine as it is. It has worked for countless years now and I think it is an effective punishment

[mossly 144]

33 minutes ago, StraightWhiteChristianMale said:

-1 coming from someone who has been jailed more times than i can remember, I think it is perfectly fine as it is. It has worked for countless years now and I think it is an effective punishment

"for someone who has been jailed more times than I can remember...I think it is an effective punishment" is a very weird way to advertise its efficacy 

 

[IAreGunner 262]

-1 if it ain’t broke dont fix it 

[mossly 144]

44 minutes ago, IAreGunner said:

-1 if it ain’t broke dont fix it 

i agree, but this suggestion is me saying it is broke and we should fix it

[proggy 3,818]

Denied
The only change here that's worth looking into is forcing motd to open on someone, which we used to have.
That command doesn't work any longer.

We do use verbal warnings for new players. We only use jailing as a medium-level punishment and they're usually paired with a !warn.
I doubt any changes to jailing are on the way. We have limited development hours at our disposal, so we have to prioritize better ideas.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Proggy