RPGs/Explosives are/Will be the death of creativity on Garnet Gaming DRP

[HSR Sampo Koski 22]

Before I start with all my points, I want to make two things very clear when it comes to this post.  First, this is not a rage post. I know and have defended against explosives throughout a good amount of my time on the server. I know how to avoid them and have. And second, the main goal of this post is to start a discussion, nothing more and nothing less. This is a problem that I feel hasn't been talked about enough in the community in general and I want to at the very least get people talking.

 

As the title says, I think that explosives on Garnet have caused one of the most boring basing metas we have ever seen on this server and has killed any creativity when it comes to basing locations in general.

Description:

The problem

The problem with explosives on Garnet has been the same for years: they do damage through props. This one property has caused so many issues for making bases and basing locations that I'm amazed this hasn't been looked at more. You unironically can't base in 60% of the buildings on the map because they are too small and thus can't be defended from RPG splash damage.

Reasoning:

Take this building for example. I would bet that even some of the best builders in the game couldn't make a building like this RPG-proof, at least not fully. Honestly, it was one thing when glass was able to stop Explosive Splash damage, but it's a whole other thing when there's absolutely nothing to stop that splash damage from hitting you in smaller buildings and even some more medium-sized buildings. When you really think about the logic of this, it all falls apart for me. Why in the world should anything on this server be able to kill people through their own props instantly?  No matter how well built there base is? 

 

The amount of lower-level player bases that I've seen get nuked for daring to build in a location that's not a massive factory building is ridiculous. Every single day, I see it happen. Hell, most raiders' first thoughts when they see a base is to pull out a rocket to skip the actual raiding part.

 

So what have the results of this been? Well, most people that know anything about building know that you basically can only base in extremely big buildings. So, this is half of the underground buildings and the industrial part of the map. With this being the case, it has created one of the most boring basing metas I've ever seen on this server. You HAVE to base in a massive building with some form of a sniper peak at the back so you don't get one-shotted by a random rocket from across the street. Every base is damn near the same. Half of the fun of this server for me is building in fun and unique locations, but now you can't even really do that. And that's why I feel RPGs have caused the death of any form of creativity on this server when it comes to bases.

 

Recently, there was a change to the rules made about sniper peaks, and as someone who used to use these types of peaks, I can agree that this was an amazing change. But the problem for me is that things like that have to go both ways. From my eyes, the end goal of a change like this is to bring back an older style of defending bases with things like shotgun peaks. But the issue with that is RPGs hard counter almost any other form of peaks that aren't sniper peaks. This change, without a nerf/removal of RPGs, makes zero sense to me. It tips the scales even more into the hands of raiders.  And that's with the already relatively big tool set that people have to raid.

 

The solution 

This is one of those problems that has many solutions, and it really just depends on how you look at it. The first and easiest solution in my eyes is the outright removal of explosives from the game. I think RPGs have done more harm than good, but I also don't think this would be the best way of going about things. Another solution could be simply nerfing RPGs to not do splash damage through props. I know that when it comes to M9K, it's never as simple as just "nerfing" things, and I'm not even sure if that's a value that would be able to be manipulated, but it's worth bringing up. Another idea could be re-enabling glass to block explosive splash damage. I don't love the idea of this as it forces the player to really only build out of glass and use way more props than should be needed just to defend their base, but it's better than what we have right now.  Which is nothing.

 

No matter how I look at this, I always come to the same conclusion that RPGs/Explosives should never be able to hit people through props. It's so blatantly broken and overpowered in this server, and that's even more so when it feels like everyone has one. I'm not sure if back in the day getting explosives was harder, but as of right now, anyone with enough time and an okay printer farm who gets lucky can get an RPG. What's the point in even having a map like downtown if 60% of the buildings are unusable because of one weapon/weapon set?

 

 

[Gildarts 166]

I personally have had issues with this when I came back to playing. My solution was a bit different than yours as we talked about. I personally don't care if I die from splash damage although if its through walls its kind of stupid (depending on range). My main issue is minges who can't raid you so they Explosive or Toxic your base to kill off your printers or radio or anything that has HP. I would say step one is removal of Splash damage to entities; then decrease the radius of splash damage, or figure out how to make it not splash full damage through walls. This being theoretical cause Gmod sucks and you can't always do what you in-vision. 

 

Its just sad because like you said 60% of places can't be utilized and I would argue that number is MUCH higher. Without instantly dying or loosing your printers; The other problem being the top players hold the monopoly on explosives and kinda of abuse that fact. I am not talking down on them because its what I would abuse but that is what it kind of is. I would like to see what others have for ideas or if Garnet knows of a solution himself. Lets keep the talks friendly. 

[ChrisRid 900]

It's an interesting point, and I agree with most of what you've said. I think there needs to be some sort of change, it's just finding the right solution to this.

 

To me, the first thing that comes to mind is a map update, whereby all small bases have some invisible barrier in front of the windows / doors that prevents splash damage from passing through. I'm not sure if this is possible, but it seems feasible, like an invisible no-collide wall of sorts? Garnet would be able to shed some light on that I'd imagine but this would protect all of the smaller base areas, allow people to keep explosives, and larger bases would remain the same.

 

If that doesn't work, my next idea would be to make the ammo a lot more expensive than it currently is. This would mean raiders could still use RPG's if they want to, but the cost of firing 5 rockets would deter them from making it a regular thing. You could also look at making the RPG's rarer too, so players are less likely to pull it out at every opportunity, and perhaps opt for other means.

 

I personally don't like the idea of getting rid of explosives altogether, I appreciate that lower-level players don't have them straight off the bat (which is fair) because it's always been exciting trying to work towards getting RPG's, Matadors, etc. As you say, if people want to put time into farming then they can also buy themselves an RPG, or have a laugh doing some !unbox crates.

[tadtad31 83]

glass was a good solution to this problem so why they deleted it in the first place only merk will know but they should bring it back

[Nutter 15,158]

I could be completely wrong, but if I recall, I had @Merk join me on a test server, quite literally back half a year ago when he was still a lead mod, and he helped me disable RPGs putting damage through walls. The only way they should be able to damage you is through props, but shooting through a building's walls should be a no-go. So in that instance of your image:

This is quite literally an extreme scenario of a base where yes, RPGs are super OP against, but the one to the left of it, it's almost impossible to cause you splash damage?

 

I'm open to nerfing RPGs and making it to where each prop it has to go through to reach you means 25% less damage

[Merk 307]

I agree with Chrisrid on this one, it's not a matter of simply removing them or making them useless in a raid scenario, we need to find a happy medium wherein they're still effective, just not so much as to be totally useless or totally overpowered. Like nutter said above, possibly lowering the passthrough damage depending on how many layers of props there are would help to protect you, but if this was a known percentage, I could foresee people stacking multiple props across the face of their base in order to be invincible. (Players who don't know about the passthrough rate & newbies would still be vulnerable.)

I like the idea of increasing the cost for rocket ammo, since rocket launchers are so powerful, raising the cost of them in the !unbox shop might help to convey the idea that they should be preserved and only used on formidable opponents.

Something that would be awesome (but could be impossible) would be buying a rocket shield from the F4 menu to protect yourself.. There are many options to consider, maybe we'll just have to keep playing with it until we find the correct solution to make it fair to both sides. I feel like removing explosives completely will upset the VIP population while pleasing the casual/newbie pop; However, I don't believe this is the solution to the problem as it stands now. 
 

[Nutter 15,158]

1 hour ago, Merk said:

I could foresee people stacking multiple props across the face of their base in order to be invincible. (Players who don't know about the passthrough rate & newbies would still be vulnerable.)

That's the issue with a change like that, RPGs are mostly just affecting newbies to begin with (when I say newbies, I mean a player who's only been consistently playing for a week, not a brand new user). So making RPG viable against specifically those players would be very harsh.

 

1 hour ago, Merk said:

ike the idea of increasing the cost for rocket ammo, since rocket launchers are so powerful, raising the cost of them in the !unbox shop might help to convey the idea that they should be preserved and only used on formidable opponents.

Agree with this right here, dude must have like 10 alts and 20 printers for you to even dare use a round

1 hour ago, Merk said:

Something that would be awesome (but could be impossible) would be buying a rocket shield from the F4 menu to protect yourself.. There are many options to consider, maybe we'll just have to keep playing with it until we find the correct solution to make it fair to both sides. I feel like removing explosives completely will upset the VIP population while pleasing the casual/newbie pop; However, I don't believe this is the solution to the problem as it stands now. 

A rocket shield would unfortunately still only be targeted at VIP/long term players. I think the best first course of action is nerfing the range of the RPG by 30-40%?

[ChrisRid 900]

13 hours ago, Nutter said:

I could be completely wrong, but if I recall, I had @Merk join me on a test server, quite literally back half a year ago when he was still a lead mod, and he helped me disable RPGs putting damage through walls. The only way they should be able to damage you is through props, but shooting through a building's walls should be a no-go.

Explosives are definitely blocked through walls, but I think a lot of people used to shield their breakable windows with glass to prevent the splash damage from seeping through, so I'm not sure if it apply to windows (breakable ones that is)? If there's some way of adding something for the windows, that would be a really useful advantage for small bases which would apply equally to new and old players

 

 

13 hours ago, Merk said:

I like the idea of increasing the cost for rocket ammo, since rocket launchers are so powerful, raising the cost of them in the !unbox shop might help to convey the idea that they should be preserved and only used on formidable opponents.

12 hours ago, Nutter said:

gree with this right here, dude must have like 10 alts and 20 printers for you to even dare use a round

I think the price increase for rockets would really help, or even if you were to add single RPG rounds to the !unbox system perhaps? That way they would become a highly sort-after rare item, a bit like in Rust, launchers are abundant but everyone is looking for more rockets!

 

 

14 hours ago, tadtad31 said:

glass was a good solution to this problem so why they deleted it in the first place only merk will know but they should bring it back

13 hours ago, Merk said:

Something that would be awesome (but could be impossible) would be buying a rocket shield from the F4 menu to protect yourself

I much prefer Merk's idea of a purchasable 'Rocket Shield' from the F4 menu over using glass as a defence against explosives. A rocket shield would be more intuitive to new players, it took me a while before I realised why people used glass on their bases when I first joined and initially assumed it was to keep an eye on who was lingering around outside lmao. It wouldn't have to be expensive either, and you could limit the size / quantity allowable too?

[Fat Good BOI 205]

i mean im a owner of many type of explosives I do agree with nutter to reduce the damage since of new players or add back glass protection etc to make it fair since like all someone needs is like 4 rockets and boom ez raid all your shit gone

[tdizz 1,058]

I'm not completely understanding the post, explosives haven't ever really been a problem due to the small amount of players that actually have them, sure you can unbox them but the chances are extremely low. That being said if you're smart about building bases you can essentially base anywhere you'd like on the current map, the splash damage of rockets isnt enough to fully kill you if you have adequate protection of your valuables (stoves and printers ext.) raiders already have no advantages so risking using your RPG/Explosives during a raid is why the balance has been nice all these years, just dont know how or why we would remove a large part of the economy just because (im assuming) you lost your printers after someone raided you with a RPG. Honestly aside from some exploits and people massing i dont see the issue in having them around. Just my 2 cents.

[Vortex 270]

Everyone is complaining about the prices of cases but this is the reason why explosives are suppose to be expensive! After all, not everyone should be able to own a rocket / grenade launcher. You put yourself at risk each time you pull one out. I've lost 2 M202's and countless other launchers in my days and It's part of the game. Removing or nerfing blast trough props is gonna affect the server and remove a fun aspect of the game that's been there for a long time. I almost forgot to add that explosives already received a nerf couple months ago where you are no longer exempt from taking damage from your own GL's / RL's.

[Nutter 15,158]

2 hours ago, Vortex said:

I almost forgot to add that explosives already received a nerf couple months ago where you are no longer exempt from taking damage from your own GL's / RL's.

That doesn't count as a nerf, that's really just a bug fix for an exploit that got taken too far.

In all reality, I do think RPGs affect the average user, and yes, they're theoretically supposed to be expensive and scarce, but as we know, many OG players have alts which give them access to insane amounts of money.

[Vortex 270]

7 hours ago, Nutter said:

That doesn't count as a nerf, that's really just a bug fix for an exploit that got taken too far.

That ‘’exploit’’ that you fixed was present since the party update first appeared. Possibly why some people tought of it as some sort of game mechanic and not a bug since it was well known even back in the proggy days. If like you say it was just a bug fix for an exploit that got taken too far, then it went unchecked/unchanged for too long imo. I get what you’re saying tho.

7 hours ago, Nutter said:

as we know, many OG players have alts which give them access to insane amounts of money.

I’d love to give a simple fix to this big alt moneys printers farming strat but only you can make something happen. I keep hearing alts and bad economy all the time so why aren’t you limiting or removing them. It seems about time something is done because it’s constantly being used as an argument against ‘’OG’’ players with alts (somewhat valid) but don’t hate the player, hate the game! If/when alts get a nerf, I would love to see other ways for players to make money outside of the usual 3; meth, crack & printers.:)

Edited February 11 by Vortex

[AlexConway 1,147]

2 hours ago, Vortex said:

I’d love to give a simple fix to this big alt moneys printers farming strat but only you can make something happen. I keep hearing alts and bad economy all the time so why aren’t you limiting or removing them.

The serial abusers (7-10+ alts) of alt-ing have already been banned months ago by @Merk. I know the DarkRP Management Team is actively policing serious alting (3+), but a hard coded solution would affect people who don't alt but use a VPN that may be shared by another player, etc.

Alting is low impact now since it is scarce and intermittent with the way the community has grown, but that doesn't remove the fact that they already have the capital (money) and the weapons cached away.

Edited February 11 by AlexConway

[Nutter 15,158]

5 hours ago, Vortex said:

I’d love to give a simple fix to this big alt moneys printers farming strat but only you can make something happen. I keep hearing alts and bad economy all the time so why aren’t you limiting or removing them. It seems about time something is done because it’s constantly being used as an argument against ‘’OG’’ players with alts (somewhat valid) but don’t hate the player, hate the game! If/when alts get a nerf, I would love to see other ways for players to make money outside of the usual 3; meth, crack & printers.:)

Huh? we actively do something against those "OG" Players with alts ;(

That's why the entire squad of weirdos like Torq are still screaming about missing the server, we eventually had to cut them loose because they were being too detrimental to our server.

A balance is hard to reach, we don't want to fully disallow players from having a reasonable number of alts (2-3) to help them out economically if so they wish, because at the end of the day, we compete with servers who are actively botting servers, looking like they hold a higher population, when in reality they have 100 bots (Smokes/Atomic were banned off tracking websites for this)